Rant- The "balance" of casters

[AelrynBloodmoon]

Alright. First things first, and I've said this before; I'm the one of the last ones to say that casters are underpowered. With that said, some ideas/policies that are considered a means to "balance" casters here annoy me, and I want to put them in some semblance of organized text to hopefully affect at least SOME minor change. This won't be too terribly detailed yet, because I expect a backlash of "omg you noob, are you kidding, casters need to be nerfed!" and I'd rather get MORE specific there.

Proceeding-

1: Ability bonuses. All people have equal opportunity with ability bonus gear being capped at a max of +3. Except wait. I've been playing five years. I've never seen ONE SINGLE helmet that provides a bonus to wisdom. I have seen helmets that provide bonuses stealth skills, helmets that provide bonuses to charisma, helmets that provide bonuses to intelligence- why do divine casters get gimped?

This is not limited to just helmets- there are no +2/3 wisdom rings, or cloaks, or gloves, or boots. There is a +1 charisma/+1 wisdom ring that in turn requires you to take -1 to your constitution- in what fashion does this precipitate balance, when any arcane caster on the server (arguably stronger than divine casters were it not for other balance issues I'll discuss later) can easily aquire +8 to his primary stat through 3 items without hurting himself elsewhere?

2: IMPROVED EVASION ON ITEMS IS RETARDED. I'm sorry. It's bad enough that 90% of melee builds find some way to incorporate evasion into their build. Is this really even remotely necessary when you can buy +8 save gear for gold that can be made in a single night of hunting? Or was the unanimous opinion that everyone should be able to wear a piece of armor in order to dodge a field of falling meteor rocks from the sky? :-P

3: +8 save gear. Yes. I'm aware it's epic only. I still fail to see how providing gear that can be PURCHASED to be able to pass ALL saving throws against the spells of ANY caster, even one completely focused towards getting his DC higher to the exclusion of everything else they can possibly do, on everything but a 1, is balanced. +5 vs. mind-affecting spells +3 to all will saves on a helmet is dumb. Enchanters are rare enough as it is, such an item is a slap in the face. Necromancers already have to deal with all the powerful monsters on the server being immune to death spells, and wands of death ward are easily enough accessed (and immune to spell breach.) Fortitude is also the easiest save to raise. While I don't object to some benefit against death spells being offered on items, I fail to see how +5 vs. death, +3 to all fortitude saves, again on a single helmet that can be switched out instantly with a hot-key as the situation demands, is balanced. Necromancy is SUPPOSED to be a feared art- on this server, it's laughable, with the exclusion of horrid wilting- and at that rate, you may as well be an evoker (except everyone has access to improved evasion. :-P)

4: The highest spell DC one could conceivably get on this server off the top of my head and without accounting for NWN's buggy/faulty spell coding would be 39- that's a 9th level spell (10+9=19) +epic spell focus (+6=25) +14 (18 in primary casting stat at start, +6 over 24 levels to get to 24, +2 from greater STAT 2 to 26, +12 from items and spells for a total of 38, or +14 to all DC's- 25+14=39.)  Wonderful. Beautiful. I've seen characters that can disarm weaponmasters and IKD chain anyone they fight while wearing gear that gets all their saves up to 35+. If this is not somehow heavily biased in favor of making casters rely on spam of saveless spells or praying for a 1, even though they're level 25 and focused in as many ways as they possibly can be to making their spells work while being completely vulnerable in many other ways, then explain to me the premise behind this, please. I'm aware not all people powergame, but if you use that argument to justify this approach, then casters hardly need the nerf of +8 save gear to balance them- after all, they don't all powergame. :-P

5: Even transmuters get bent over the table- freedom belts are easy to obtain- I believe they're still sold somewhere, aren't they? Bye-bye, flesh to stone.

6: Yes, two of my three main characters are casters. Talic, on the other hand, is melee, and very vulnerable to casters- if they see him. I still don't think he should have access to a +8 save helm. I don't think I should be able to put on a helmet and go from "holy crap, this guy is powerful, he might suck the soul out of my body/dominate my mind and make me do horrible things" to "Hahahaha, you can't beat me! I have a helmet of Mage-screwing. Bend over!" Talic has evasion. He's not terrified of evokers, but at least he respects the ones that can throw their spells competently as something to be cautious of (DC 30+).

7: Again, I know casters are powerful. But it's basically gotten to the point that to provide competitive DC's you have to metagame the hell out of the other person's weaknesses; I'm not aiming to have casters be the uber end all be all, but a dedicated level 25 dc caster that can land a spell on rolls other than a 1 would be nice. It'd also be nice if the wisdom stat received at least HALF as much attention on gear as EVERY OTHER STAT gets. I'm pretty sure even constitution is easier to get bonuses to than wisdom.

[Sakes]

1. On ability Bonuses:

Yes, wisdom only comes from necks.  Personally I don't see it as a problem considering Clerics are in my opinion the most powerful class in the game.  Clerics can still get strength items to benefit themselves or if they're more caster orientated spell slot items.  Yes, DCs will be lower but thats mainly because almost all of the clerical DCs are Evocation, whereas a wizard or sorc needs to pick his school and focus.  I disagree with this being a problem.

2. Improved Evasion on items:  I completely agree to you, and I want them gone.  Furthermore, I'd like Improved evasion completely disabled on medium and heavy armor.  I've seen a 2 blackguard/2 rogue/19 fighter completely immune to almost everything because his saves were so insane and he had evasion.  People in full plate shouldn't dodge fireballs, and classes that have no business with Improved Evasion shouldn't have it.  Its something I've pulled for for a long time.

3. I wasn't aware there was purchasable +8 save gear.  The highest I'm aware of is +5 in the mercs guild to either death or mind effecting.  Let me know where it sells that and I'll be on your side for removal.

4. The problem with spell DCs isn't a problem with LOTN, its a problem with NWN in general.  Death spells are silly.  If the necromancer has any chance of them landing, hes overpowered, if he has no chance of them landing, hes useless.  Theres no middle ground.  A single save to decide a fight isn't fun gameplay.    I perposed a fix by making it so that death spells deal a 20% of a targets max life in damage for each point the saving throw falls below the DC then increasing the DCs or reducing the saving gear available. In this way you add a lot more balance because if you fail the save by 1 or 2 you still take damage but don't instantly die.  Anyway, I don't see a way to solve this.  If we give the advantage to the casters then everyone else will say its not fair.

5. Freedom of movement belts aren't sold anywhere I'm aware of, and I'm not even sure Freedom prevents Flesh to Stone.  Its not a big deal if it is, Death Ward and Freedom of Movement are both cleric spells and both level 4.  Still, its the same arguement as the one above since both are essentailly death spells.

6. How other characters react to yours will always be up to them, not you.  If they don't fear you, theres little DMs can do to make them.  I think it stems more from our extremely lient death system then the strength of your character.  Whos going to be a coward when the price for bravery is so low?  Its been a long time since I've seen anyone RP being afraid of anything, honestly.

7. I think most of the balance issues aren't LOTN related but from bioware and how they made the game.  Its balanced for single player, not for multi.   The spells are designed to be used against enemies that are fodder, not people.   Character designs are made to make people gods.   Theres no worry about balance because it doesn't really matter.   Sure a cleric might have trouble against an improved evasion rogue, but who cares since your never going to fight one in the OC, and if you do his saves are probably terrible anyway.   We're trying to build a house on a foundation thats not designed to hold one, so we're going to have issues.    As I said, you can go back and forth on the DCs vrs Saving throws issue as much as you want.  Its a terrible gameplay mechanic in any multi-player game, but we're stuck with it so we just have to make do.

[AelrynBloodmoon]

1: Wisdom Gear[/i][/u](mini-rant about why I feel a little more wisdom gear could be included coming up- the last two paragraphs of point 1 encompass the main points of that rant rather nicely, so you can skip the giant wall'o'text coming up in 1 if you prefer.)

So many of the clerical spells being evocation focused is actually one of the main reasons I'm so opposed to them getting so many spell slot items without the option for wisdom gear in those slots instead- as we've just discussed, evasion isn't all that uncommon- and there are other effect-based spells that don't outright kill the cleric gets that become somewhat worthless as well (poison, enervation, energy drain, bestow curse, blindness/deafness, glyph of warding, doom, sanctuary, bane) that all wind up with -extremely- low saves compared to any arcane caster; in my opinion, clerical casters being forced to go for strength and spell slot items rather than the stat items that are so freely given to every other class is the reason you see so many cookie-cutter clerics; Cover the screen in Storm of Vengeance spam, cast divine power and divine favor, and go to town with melee; why bother casting any other spells when their chance of success is only 5% against everyone you meet, with monsters often included in that? Then, because these are cut-and-dried clearly the most effective spells any cleric can cast, and every cleric is casting them, people see their power in melee continuously and consider them overpowered.

Rather than letting clerics buy gear that gives them 13 extra spells per day (most of which go directly towards extra cookie-cutter spells) it'd be nice if they could give up 10 of those extra spells (two rings of holiness) for some extra wisdom (without ganking their constitution. :-P )

The wisdom being available more readily would result in slightly higher DC's overall for wisdom casters, but as a result, that little bit of increase would also encourage a bit of diversity- rather than casting SoV, SoV, Divine power, divine favor, charge, a cleric might cast silence, poison, then hammer of the gods.

Don't forget, clerics aren't the only ones who cast/benefit with wisdom bonuses. Paladins, druids, and rangers can gain a degree of benefit from this as well- most druids I see either spam AoE static spells like clerics do, or buff to the gills then shapeshift. No druid really has any reason to cast spells like quillfire, or infestation of maggots, (although I won't really argue that druids have a weak overall spell selection since they branch pretty comfortably into transmutation as well as conjuration- still, these spells are save based.) A ranger or paladin that might go the zen archer route as dedicated scouts have interesting possibilities as well.

2: Evasion/Improved Evasion on gear[/i][/u] If this were PnP (and between you and me you know how pro-PnP stance I am) I'd absolutely agree with people not being able to use evasion in heavy/medium armor. On the other hand, I've always felt that if you can get your tumble skill high enough to make successful tumble checks even in full plate with a tower shield and you have the strength score to support that kind of movement in that kind of armor, then you can reasonably also benefit from evasion in those limited circumstances (which requires you to spend a fairly large sum of skill points as well as being epic level.) I would agree, however, that improved evasion in such circumstances is always wrong- it's guaranteed results, and doesn't allow for the possible clumsiness that heavy armor presents.

No, my reason for disagreeing with improved evasion being available on gear is more mechanical; Giving people the ability to gain improved evasion on gear is mechanically equivalent with regards to the amount and frequency of damage it prevents to also creating and distributing items into the loot table that give Immunity: Critical Hits or Immunity: Sneak attack. Improved evasion automatically halves ALL reflex 1/2 based save damage, which comes specifically from a specific set of classes rather frequently.

Immunity to crits, on the other hand, statistically prevents half damage about 10% of the time against a specific set of classes (this is me loosely crunching numbers down to, crits happen about 5-10% of the time on average for (usually) double damage. This automatically cuts those particular attacks in half.) However, unlike improved evasion, immunity to crits and immunity to sneak attack don't offer you the ability to COMPLETELY avoid damage; from a numbers point of view then, giving someone an item with improved evasion is mechanically more powerful than giving someone an item with immunity to crits or immunity to sneak attacks- when the mage's guild starts selling such items, I'll remove my objection to evasion/improved evasion on items.

3: +8 Save Gear for Purchase[/i][/u] My understanding from my last shop to the merc guild with Testament (I'll go again soon and verify) is that you're half-right here- The helms give +5 vs. death and +5 vs. mind-affecting... but the +5 vs. death helm also gives +3 fortitude. These benefits stack vs. death spells (+5 vs. death, +3 fortitude) for a total of +8 against death, and +3 vs. ALL fortitude requiring saves- likewise, the +5 vs. mind-affecting has +3 will saves- since all mind-affecting spells are will saves, this too stacks, for a total of +8 vs. mind-affecting spells, and +3 vs. ALL will-requiring saves. Something like that is just a tad overpowered, I think, as well. More appropriate might be +2 vs. death +2 fort on one and +2 vs. mind-affecting +2 will on the other, for a total benefit of 4 vs. death +2 against all fort and identical figures for the mind-affecting/will helm. This isn't an item on par with say, scarab of protection +5 which has universal +5, but then again, amulet item slots are far more valuable than helmet slots, and you can't purchase the +5 scarab, either.

4: Death Magic[/i][/u] Here, you and I disagree somewhat. I inherently believe that anyone who walks around frequently casting spells such as destruction or finger of death and sucking the soul out of people/monsters will quickly develop somewhat of a reputation which will cause drawbacks of its own. Likewise, I'm not saying we should have DC 45 death spells to make them feared, but I'm pretty sure a duergar cleric can throw a higher DC implosion than I can throw an Epic Spell Focus: Necromancy Destruction. (If I could throw at least as well as the duergar, by virtue of epic spell focus necromancy and assuming the duergar cleric doesn't have spell focus, my destruction DC should be 4 higher, and if he has greater spell focus evo our spell DC's should be the same.)

Having a spell that can kill instantly on a low save but does very little if it fails to kill is not overpowered- it's a trade-off. Yes, if you roll a 5 or less, you're going to die instantly. On the other hand, if you pass the save, you spent the round where I was casting charging up to me, and now you're probably spamming IKD at me for all you're worth- and by the same token, losing to IKD spam isn't much fun either. Hell, for all I know because you know of my reputation for casting death spells, you went out and paid a priest to cast death ward on you before you came to slay me. I spent my round casting a spell only to find out you're immune and I have to try to dispel you- if I can.

The fact is, "losing," when viewed mechanically, is never "fun." If you apply the situation and the role-play, however, "losing" to a death spell can be plenty of fun, and so can "losing" to IKD spam. The mechanics can be discussed back and forth, and it can be argued that IKD spam has multiple resist chances, but against a pure caster, no, it doesn't, and that's not really the point; when the spells only work on a 1, they -are- worthless. When they work from a 1-7 (roughly a 1/3rd chance), or even a 1-5, they aren't worthless, but they're still something to be cautious of- just like that IKD spamming fighter if he gets next to you, except he's going to succeed with the IKD on a lot more than a 1-5 on your part.

5: Freedom gear[/i][/u] My mistake. I figured since I know +3 gear is available at the merc store, and any belt of agility with a +3 bonus or higher comes with freedom 1/day, that they sold a belt that let you use freedom. I do know I've seen a number of people with the item, but perhaps it's all from loot drops- in that case, I don't really have any issue with it.

6: How characters perceive necromancy[/i][/u] My comment about necromancy being a feared art had little to do with how characters react to me, and more to do with how characters react to the school of magic itself. Yes, it's true that characters are ultimately free to react however the player decides, and I'm fine with that. But I can't help but feel that there is an inherent difference between how a school of magic is regarded by most players/characters when the player behind the character knows that they're safe from soul-sucking magic unless they roll a 1, and when they know they actually have to be careful because they might die. So to speak, it's the difference between "Another necromancer? Let's go get him!" and "Oh no! A vile, foul necromancer? Something must be done, but what? We can't just charge in headlong- we have our souls to consider." While I don't believe the second response should be mandatory by any means, I do feel increasing the viability of the spell school would result in more respect being given to the school voluntarily as a result of consequences that would no longer be inconsequential as they currently are.

7: LotN balance vs. NWN balance[/i][/u] I absolutely agree with you here, and I didn't mean to imply LotN doesn't do a damn good job of trying to fix what is broken- I'm merely of the opinion that in some cases, the effort to fix what was broken was a little too zealous and could do with some change. So to speak, I believe a nuclear bunker was built in the bank in preparation for a robbery, rather than a locked room with some bullet-proof glass.

[Tails1879_]

There's only two Improved Evasion items I know of in the entire server, only one of them dropping: A light, Studded Leather armor. The other was a ring, and I doubt any of the current characters have that >.>

+3, Improved Evasion. Now, what other class is there that can only wear -light armor- that does not have Evasion/Improved Evasion available as a feat already? They're either wearing full plate, medium armor, or lighter equipment that doesn't give them a bad wedgy because they're spellcasting or sneaking up on someone.

So far, I don't know of anyone else that doesn't just sell it off if they get it, regardless of class. There's other spells one can cast that would protect one from it.

Also, I dunno if there's much fun in losing because you just got one-shotted from a spell, especially compared to other ways you can also die. Are we also suppose to automatically crap our pants and run for the hills because someone just said "I'm a necromancer"? -slams on Death Ward as an actual spell- Don't need any items to protect against that...

I could say more, but I have to be going for a while.

[AelrynBloodmoon]

There's only two Improved Evasion items I know of in the entire server, only one of them dropping: A light, Studded Leather armor. The other was a ring, and I doubt any of the current characters have that >.>

+3, Improved Evasion. Now, what other class is there that can only wear -light armor- that does not have Evasion/Improved Evasion available as a feat already? They're either wearing full plate, medium armor, or lighter equipment that doesn't give them a bad wedgy because they're spellcasting or sneaking up on someone.

*Respectful snipping*

What classes can only wear light armor isn't the issue- the issue is that ANY class that can wear ANY armor can wear light armor- this means, for example, that a barbarian15/weaponmaster10, or a paladin/champion of torm, or a bard/CoT(or BG), or a druid... or -any- other combination of classes that normally wouldn't even get regular evasion, can all keep a suit of improved evasion handy anytime they plan to face a caster. What's more, if it's a dedicated caster, they can do so freely with little worry about how it will affect their AC to go from fullplate to studded leather- How many mages do you know with a +20 attack bonus? Dropping 5 AC vs. a caster throwing balls of lightning and fire at you for improved evasion is a no-brainer.

Just because it's on studded leather doesn't really make it okay- less so if it's dropping frequently enough that it's well known that "most people" sell it. As I said before, mechanically, it's the equivalent of (not even- really, it's more powerful than) putting +3 studded leather with crit immunity or sneak attack immunity into the loot tables.

I dunno much about the ring- I believe I've seen it once, and I have no idea where it came from, so I'm not really very well able to discuss it- but I can pretty easily say that if I had the option, every single one of my characters would own one. Dropping 3 to a stat for improved evasion against a caster throwing fire and lightning is as much a no-brainer as dropping 5 AC.

__________________________________

Edit-Afterthought[/i][/u]

And no, you aren't supposed to crap your pants and run for the hills automatically. In fact, if someone was stupid enough to walk up to you, act evil, and say "you should run, I'm a necromancer" I'd rightly expect you to cast deathward, turn into a kobold or a drow, and stab them to death- mind you, you're able to cast death ward.

On the other hand, it's also possible I might dispel you, since I'm a caster, too. Then, it follows, that there's still a CHANCE I might go Shang Tsung on you ("YOUR SOUL IS MINE!") and then you'd still have a reason to be cautious. The bard spreading rumors of a foul necromancer stealing souls in the region might cause people to seek out aid to take down the necromancer, rather than sending them scurrying to the merc guild to buy a helmet that makes them immune to the most potent spells the necromancer can cast in an attempt to "superman" them.

I repeat my earlier premise- when you view it simply as "losing" and "winning," and disregard all other aspects of what's involved, losing is never fun. Realistically, that necromancer's fun is ruined just as much by being IKD spammed so much that he never gets to stand up and cast a spell as your day is by running forward and dying instantly to a death spell. However, that's not all there is to the situation, so the premise doesn't hold very well. If I, as a caster, see you running at me, I have the option to attempt to flee rather than standing still and casting spells at you that might not work, thereby sparing me IKD rape. If you, as a character that knows I'm a necromancer, elect to charge me solo, without deathward, then you might get death-spelled; it's a chance, a risk, either way, and risk is the basis for any potential fun in a hostile encounter (IMO.) With no risk, there is no real sense of reward.

As opposed to outright charging me alone, you could flee, you could seek aid, you could attempt to reason with me, you could leave and come back later. But if there's no risk, and you know I'm a necromancer, why should you consider any of these avenues? You could come at me with a death-ward (in your case, self-provided, but in many cases, something that might have been sought out and role-played to get), and I might try to dispel you; I could succeed, I could fail. Either way, you're going to close the distance with me. Now what? Now we're both at risk- if you can hit me, you can keep me pinned to the ground until I'm dead. If I can throw a spell and you roll in that low range, you're dead too.

Is dying fun either way? No, of course not. But what MIGHT be fun is the increased sense of risk BOTH players must deal with, and the role-play that leads up to it as a result- and I'm sorry, but as long as death spells are passable on a 2 to the majority, the only one who really deals with that risk in that situation is the necromancer- why should he do anything besides spam cookie cutter spells?

[ZippyConspiracy]

What classes can only wear light armor isn't the issue- the issue is that ANY class that can wear ANY armor can wear light armor- this means, for example, that a barbarian15/weaponmaster10, or a paladin/champion of torm, or a bard/CoT(or BG), or a druid... or -any- other combination of classes that normally wouldn't even get regular evasion, can all keep a suit of improved evasion handy anytime they plan to face a caster. What's more, if it's a dedicated caster, they can do so freely with little worry about how it will affect their AC to go from fullplate to studded leather- How many mages do you know with a +20 attack bonus? Dropping 5 AC vs. a caster throwing balls of lightning and fire at you for improved evasion is a no-brainer.

Just because it's on studded leather doesn't really make it okay- less so if it's dropping frequently enough that it's well known that "most people" sell it. As I said before, mechanically, it's the equivalent of (not even- really, it's more powerful than) putting +3 studded leather with crit immunity or sneak attack immunity into the loot tables.

I dunno much about the ring- I believe I've seen it once, and I have no idea where it came from, so I'm not really very well able to discuss it- but I can pretty easily say that if I had the option, every single one of my characters would own one. Dropping 3 to a stat for improved evasion against a caster throwing fire and lightning is as much a no-brainer as dropping 5 AC.

I both agree and disagree with you. As you’ve already pointed out, in order to wear the improved evasion studded leather armor, a person would need to sacrifice the AC they receive from their full plate.    Sure, a mage might not have a +20 AB but that doesn’t mean the mage’s friends don’t. To assume that you’re going to find the mage alone and therefore ditch the heavy armor is a little silly to me, personally. Even if I’m spying on the mage and I know he’s alone, I wouldn’t want to take the chance, but that’s just me. Honestly, I know very few who would give up their full plate to wear studded leather with improved evasion on it. I’m not saying I love these items, but I think you put too much emphasis on their “power”.

I repeat my earlier premise- when you view it simply as "losing" and "winning," and disregard all other aspects of what's involved, losing is never fun. Realistically, that necromancer's fun is ruined just as much by being IKD spammed so much that he never gets to stand up and cast a spell as your day is by running forward and dying instantly to a death spell.

Due to staying up all night my brain is not currently working correctly so forgive me if what I say is a completely failed argument, haha.

I think losing can be one of the most fun things that can happen depending on the situation and the RP that had led up to it, honestly. I don’t think losing to a death spell is fun, just like I don’t think losing to IKD is fun. That’s not because I lost, it’s because I wasn’t really given a chance to do something in the battle. When the epic battle that the story has been building up to for a long times amounts to nothing more than “boom- you’re dead”, it really kills the excitement. However, I do feel necromancers get the crap hole and would not be opposed to them becoming a little more scary.

Don't forget, clerics aren't the only ones who cast/benefit with wisdom bonuses. Paladins, druids, and rangers can gain a degree of benefit from this as well- most druids I see either spam AoE static spells like clerics do, or buff to the gills then shapeshift.

Don’t forget monks! They don’t cast, but they still benefit.

Yes, wisdom only comes from necks. Personally I don't see it as a problem considering Clerics are in my opinion the most powerful class in the game.

Honestly, I believe a well-built/well-played wizard outshines a cleric any day. We give wizards tons of gear to support their class, and not much to help out clerics. I think they should receive similar bonuses from items, whether it is very little or not. I agree with Aelryn when he tried to point out that most clerics become “buff and go” and don’t really bother to cast many spells in battle other than SoV, divine favor, and divine power…because, well, I play a cleric like that. –shrug-

[Sakes]

The wisdom being available more readily would result in slightly higher DC's overall for wisdom casters, but as a result, that little bit of increase would also encourage a bit of diversity- rather than casting SoV, SoV, Divine power, divine favor, charge, a cleric might cast silence, poison, then hammer of the gods.

I'm not sure I follow.  If wisdom was available on gear ALL DCs would be higher, including the frequently used spells.  It doesn't encourage diversity in any way.   Having a good chance to land both a crappy spell and a good spell doesn't make me any more likely to want to cast a crappy one.  The only way to encourage diversity is to make the weak spells more powerful, not increase DCs across the board.

[ZippyConspiracy]

I'm not sure I follow. If wisdom was available on gear ALL DCs would be higher, including the frequently used spells. It doesn't encourage diversity in any way. Having a good chance to land both a crappy spell and a good spell doesn't make me any more likely to want to cast a crappy one. The only way to encourage diversity is to make the weak spells more powerful, not increase DCs across the board.

Casters are less likely to focus in throwing spells in battle when they know that everything is going to save anyway. Why waste the time and why waste the spell slots? Instead, clerics just tend to prepare storm of vengeance, divine power, and divine favor, and focus on cutting things down instead of really blowing anything up. Clerics become more of a glorified fighter than a caster. Increasing the DC on spells helps diversify because clerics will then have more options than just "buff and go" in order to do any damage in battle. I think that's the point he's trying to make, and I very much agree.

[AelrynBloodmoon]

I'm not sure I follow.  If wisdom was available on gear ALL DCs would be higher, including the frequently used spells.  It doesn't encourage diversity in any way.   Having a good chance to land both a crappy spell and a good spell doesn't make me any more likely to want to cast a crappy one.  The only way to encourage diversity is to make the weak spells more powerful, not increase DCs across the board.

Ahh, but see, the rub is, they aren't crappy spells. They're -made- into crappy spells because without the ability to boost spell DC's the way every other caster can, the spells are rendered ineffective against a large majority of players (and monsters, too). Yes, the cookie-cutter spells will get a little bit better, but I'd be much less likely to go "SoV, Divine Power, Divine Favor"(all spells that have some guaranteed effect regardless of saving throw) for my first three rounds of combat if I could potentially instead go "Poison, Silence, or Blindness/deafness" with any noteworthy chance of success- sure, it's not GUARANTEED results, but the extra 3 or 4 points of DC that you could potentially get with the extra wisdom gear changes them from spells that only land on a 1 to spells that can potentially work 20-25% of the time- thus making them NOT crappy, and causing reason to use a wider variety of spells.

To top it all off, giving up the rings of holiness for the extra wisdom would reduce the number of cookie-cutter combat buff spells every cleric currently casts by 8(2 divine favor, 2 aid, 2 prayer, 2 divine power) while giving them a wider-spread smattering of bonus spells. Rings of Holiness just -scream- "use my spell slots to buff, then switch me out to get the benefit of some other ring while you're fighting." With wisdom rings, unequipping them will -always- have an effect on your casting, whether you've used the bonus spell slots from them or not.

[Sakes]

Ok.  I see what your saying now, players are more likely to cast buffs then offensive spells because clerical DC is lower.  Well....

The cap on abilty bonuses is +12.  Assuming a player can get to that cap thats a +6 to DC.

A cleric can get +3 from their neck plus +5 from Owl's wisdom, which is +8.

Unless I'm missing something in my math this means Clerics have 2 less DC then mages.  In exchange for this they get...

1. Platemail.
2. All their spells at level up, never have to decide which ones to pick or find scrolls.
3. Melee ability thats almost as good as warriors when buffed
4. The ability to heal themselves and others.
5. The ability to remove every negative effect in the game

For 2 DC?  Seems like a fair trade to me.


Your saying that 2 DC is going to completely change the way people play clerics?  I disagree.

[AelrynBloodmoon]

Owl's Wisdom only guarantees the +5 if you maximize it- yes, you can do this (as a fifth level spell, IF you spend the feat as a cleric to take maximize) but it doesn't address several of the other issues. More reliably, you will get between +3-4 for your owl's wisdom on average, which creates a range of +6 to +7, unless you prepare multiple castings/spam a wand for a perfect roll.

You can do what you're talking about with the rings of holiness equipped, and the facts wind up being, that you still get 2 extra divine powers, 2 extra divine favors, (4 if you drop 2 aids for 2 extended divine favors, again, if you take said metamagic feat,) 2 extra aids, and 2 extra prayers- which, -yes-, in my opinion, is vastly going to encourage buff-and-go cookie cutter tactics more than the extra 2(or three, if you didn't spam owl's at yourself) points of DC (enough to change the chance of your other spells landing by up to 15%.)

Also worth considering- the extra wisdom rings, as I said, will spread your bonus spells out -away- from the cookie-cutter spells, giving you less opportunity to use cookie-cutter spells and encouraging more diverse effects to be used.

Your stance seems to be that the cleric is viable as it currently exists, but that skirts the main issue of discussion here- I never said they weren't viable. I went out of my way to say, repeatedly, that they aren't underpowered. However, clerics ARE neatly herded into a cookie-cutter format, where all clerics are viable because all clerics cast the same spells all the time. It's great that they're viable, but it'd be nice if I saw a little variety between the local cleric of lathander that hates undead and is heavily focused in evocation (presumably to take advantage of both implosion and, against undead, sunburst) and the local cleric of Tempus (with the war and strength domains), who ironically if you dressed up in the same armor as the lathanderite you would have a hard time telling them apart on a battle-field... because they're both using the exact same tactics as each other.

Increasing the available wisdom gear will make some spells for clerics more viable than they currently are, encouraging (at least to some extent) a little variety. If that's not a good enough reason to consider more wisdom gear, as was mentioned previously in the thread there's other classes and categories that can benefit from this as well.

[Kattze]

2.  IMPROVED EVASION ON ITEMS - "The Lucky One" short sword has been removed from the loot system for a couple weeks now, was that the one you found?  I don't remember putting the improved easion light armor in but if you give me the name of it I can snoop around and remove it.

3. That helmet with +5 to mindaffecting and +3 to will saves DO NOT stack.  I have worn the helmet thinking "sweet this is great my only weakness has been nullified!" but they do not stack.

I try not to reply to these threads since Sakes is better at discussing balance issues than I am, and he has far more knowledge than I do on these topics.

Here are our item conventions supplied by Sakes on the DM boards:

Helmets:
+2 CHA (LOTN)
+3 INT

Cloaks:
+3 CHA

Boots:
+3 DEX
+3 CON

Belts:
+3 DEX
+3 STR

Gloves:
+3 DEX
+3 STR

Armor:
DEX +2 (LOTN)
CHA +2 (LOTN)
INT +2 (LOTN)

Rings:
+3 INT

Necklaces:
+3 WIS
+3 CHA

Weapons:
Any +2 (LOTN)

[Sakes]

The only real buttual to my point I read there was that owl's wisdom isn't always +5, so it could be only 3 or 4.

Ok,  fair enough, but eagles splendor and fox's cunning isn't garenteed either.   Lets say for the sake of arguement that gear is enough to cap int and char even without buff spells.  In that case your saying that 2-4 DC is the difference between a wide variety of spells and cookie cutter builds.  I still don't see it.  If DCs were 3 points higher you'd still have a chance to fail on offensive spells you don't have on buffs.  You'd have less of a chance but the chance is still there, and still enough to make you consider not casting them.  

I can understand your point, but I don't think adding rings with wisdom is going to solve your problem.  Frankly, it can't be solved.  If you remove or reduce chance of failure you make instant kill spells like Implosion and Distruction too powerful. Clerics have to deal with the same DC system other classes do, but at least they have the option of buffing themselves and going melee against high save enemies, an option mages don't have.

In short, I don't completely disagree with your arguement that offensive spells aren't worth casting over buffs, but I entirely disagree that wisdom on rings would change that.

[Shade6.7]

"Kumakawa" is the name of the studded leather armor. It is in the standard NWN lewt.

[jcly kite]

Wasn't there a robe or something with a wisdom bonus on it? I remember seeing it at one of the vendors but that was like 3 years ago. Also, doesn't Owl's Insight stack with Owl's Wisdom? (not a self-buff for clerics, but it would still let a cleric reach the +12 cap)

Regardless, I don't think the point was about putting wisdom on rings or not. The main thing I gathered from the OP was that items tend to be biased against casters, stacking lots of saves on every item slot imaginable while leaving casters with little to no ways of countering that "immunity to saving throws".

The thing with spells in general are that they're basically all or nothing. Failing a fortitude save typically gets you killed instantly. Failing a will save might as well be like failing a death save due to being paralyzed or whatever for several minutes. Failing a reflex save could get you blinded, permanently. And, of course, due to the wide range of saving throws that the actual player base has (rather than just the ridiculous saves of certain people), the d20 roll is not nearly wide enough to give a reasonable chance to both those people with saves of 15-20 and those with 35+. Make the DC too high and the people without 35+ saves have no chance of surviving. Make it too low and the people with 35+ saves are now invincible.

I liked Sakes's idea with the partial damage for death spells. I wonder how balance would change if there was a gradient of effects between -5 and +5 of the DC, with more powerful spells given at least a minimum effect (for instance, even if you beat the save of wail of the banshee by 10, you might still take some neg energy damage).

It has been a long time since I have played this game though. My sense of balance has shifted far from traditional DnD characteristics. Then again, Lotn was always pretty flexible in that regard (the work I did typically didn't have any basis on DnD principles - it was just stuff that I thought might work).