PvP Vs. RP- Who decided they were mutually exclusive?

[AelrynBloodmoon]

My best advice is to keep in mind we're here to RP.  If your looking for balanced combat and a well designed PvP system I'm afraid you've picked up the wrong game.

The title plus the quote, respectfully snipped from another thread (and made into its own thread, because, in a lack of foresight I dealt with way too many issues in one thread and now it's all over the place) phrases the idea I'd like to convey pretty well.

I want to know, when the server as a whole decide that PvP (or for those of you who prefer it, the friendlier term of CvC, which is what I think of all PvP as anyway) is anathema to RP and that any lengthy discussion about it, or about changing some of the ways the system works is counterproductive. The fact is, in many circumstances, I couldn't disagree more.

In a game universe like Faerun, conflict is integral to plots and progress- the entire world is shaped from a series of constantly flowing conflicts between the forces of good, evil, law, chaos, and those who tend to balance as well. Sure, this doesn't mean one character has to be killing another every five minutes, but sticking your head in the sand and saying LaLaLa conflict/combat is not important is silly- while you're singing that tune, at any given point half a dozen or more wars or epic battles are being fought in Faerun.

These conflicts are inevitably what shapes the world and atmosphere around you in which you're playing, and they're what give all the divine forces that we use so freely for background to shape our character's personalities.

More to the point, on this server, there are not always DM's on running plots, and there are not restrictions on what alignments are available for characters to play- one would, I think then, logically assume that the intention is for players to play diverse characters with differing views to help motivate RP and inter-character conflict. These things are what keep the server going when there aren't a bunch of DM's on running three or four different quests every day for a bunch of different groups of people.

Also, if you'll notice, the server allows PvP; the very fact that it allows PvP seems to me to indicate that PvP -must- be at least moderately important, or else why allow it and all the headaches that arise? And the fact is, it is moderately important. Because in the end, despite all the whining, this world would be laughable if a Paladin encountered someone in the company of undead and the Paladin wasn't required to destroy those undead, and the foul necromancer who stops using them.

The world would be silly if the evil necromancer just stood there and took it like a sedate puppy while some insolent whelp walked up to him and started insulting him and "role-playing" slapping him about the face and antagonizing him. Sorry. Yeah. It's great that you want to RP that. You want to keep RP'ing that way? Okay, I'm going to RP casting a spell that should make you scream very loudly in pain as I try to rip the soul from your body? What's that? No? I can't do that, you refuse to acknowledge the RP? Well, okay. *Right clicks, and casts the spell.* What? I'm a terrible role-player because my EVIL necromancer killed you in the course of RP'd conflict?

Satire aside, the point I'm trying to make with this is that in the design of server LotN has, I think it's faulty to say that CvC and RP mutually exclude each other- and I think it's outright ridiculous to say that because your character is powerful in CvC that someone is somehow a lesser Role-player because of it, or that because someone is interested in the system for CvC being looked at and balanced they're not as good an RP'er too, and that maybe they should look elsewhere.

CvC is, like it or not, an integral part of shaping the world we play in- not all things have to be resolved through CvC, but some situations will inevitably HAVE to be settled that way, and you can make all the excuses for why they don't have to be settled that way, but excuses imply exceptions, and exceptions are not the rule.

I'd strongly encourage anyone of the belief that enjoying, being good at, or being interested in the system and balance of PvP makes you a poor RP'er take a good long read of the link in my sig.

(As an afterthought, because people are easy to blow things out of proportion here on the forums, this message is not directed at Sakes' personally, but rather the sentiment that seemingly resides in the statement; while it may not be his sentiment, it is a statement I have heard in the past where the above discussed -was- the sentiment, and it bothers me.)

[BraliusMelchior]

PvP and RP work hand in hand, of course. But it's about the style of it...

Point and click relies on powerbuilds, powerbuilds make those that are sticking to an RPed theme obsolete, those that are making all stats exactly as their characters personality, not exploiting the system, and taking skills such as persuade and bluff, rather than throwing it all in heal, UMD, and other skills not EVERYONE has.

In that case, the RP value a character that is sticking to their RP build is now at a disadvantage to those that exploit the game mechanics to their advantage, while trying to find a reasonable RP excuse to not get a slap on the hand for doing so.

And generally, people exploit these points of the mechanics with PvP in mind, they want their crap to stink less than everyone elses - play a character with no fears, and with acceptable weaknesses that aren't easily exploited, and likely have nothing to do with combat anyway.

The issue with with exploiting mechanics, then relying on those mechanics to force RP onto others. It's difficult to do, and ruins people's motivation to take a lower DEX score and play an actual clumsy character, etc...

This is the type of PvP that hinders RP. Read the rulebooks offline, and you'll understand that the things in game that are stacking or working so cohesively aren't really supposed to - it's just that NWN wasn't made with so much thought placed into the multiplayer RP concept, sadly.

However, the world cannot survive without PvP. There must be conflict, or everything will stagnate. The world will be full of butterflies, cookies, and teddy bears - and eventually people will get sick of it and leave. It's finding the happy medium that's the challenge, between an arena server and social server. Through style and cooperation, it can be rewarding PvP that doesn't cause such OOC conflict and frustration over blatant exploits of the system.

In the end though, I think the mechanics should continue to be tailored toward PvE, and it should be the responsibility of the players to know that a straight level 25 fighter should be feared for their unmatched skill, rather than laughed at and left behind to the 6 fighter/7 weapon master/12 rogue - and RP their PvP responsibly while using dice rolls to determine the victor when needed.

[Kattze]

I tried to PVP and do evil things on my drow and got nothing but complaints or totally ignored.  I gave up.

[Shanra]

*Nods in agreement with Kattze*

My evil drow was no fun to play because I couldn't be as evil as I wanted.. (People don't like bad things happening to their character, especially if it might be long term or even permanent) and no one would play ball.

So I let her get killed off.

[BraliusMelchior]

That falls into the "Locked Topic - Roleplaying" thread that has been ressurected from time to time. I think each of us all added our own thoughts into there before on that issue, and it's still an issue when people don't want to allow their character to be effected by their environment. In the standard good vs evil, it's normally perceived as the evil character trying to force such things onto a good character. On the flipside though, those that have played evil characters and tried to have a significant effect on others have found that it's often reciprocated far more from full groups of good characters.

Sometimes both sides are guilty. Or the player feels disrespected because someone didn't allow them to alter anything - all of your efforts were for nothing because you can't force RP on anyone, and unless you were going to, your entire cause is lost on certain characters -- rightfully so if it is done with lack of responsibility. It's a struggle between players, and who is the bigger person when it comes to RPing. Nobody wants to ruin anyone's fun, but they want to have their own fun too.

It's a form of PvP, but more often than not is simply stubbornness and lack of cooperation between the players, extending to the characters to create a stalemate - and loads of frustration. If I am playing a character for years, and accomplish so much that I have pride in my character though - how could I let some person I barely know all of a sudden have the control to ruin all I've accomplished, and why should I place trust in them to be responsible enough to do so without ruining the game for me?

I would put money on that being a question many have asked themselves in the past - with the obvious answer of ignoring the other character's attempts and writing it off on your own character just being "that bad ass." After all... you put so much work into it right? You've fought dragons, liches, giants, and balors without breaking a sweat... why should some elf be able to come along and rattle you up?

My answer is to get to know the players behind my potential "victims." Scheming with some collaboration with those that are controlling my characters enemies. So far, it's been successful, as I was saying before - so I'm simply adding my thoughts based on my own experience with the issue.

I've been a bit thoughtful lately, so please excuse all the loooong posts I've been making lately. I have a lot of free time at work and I've been at it on this server with my "strategies" for a while now.

[theMannequin]

Not everyone wants to get involved in PvP.  Not everyone wants to have their character have something drastic happen to their character.  Unless, they have control over it.  If the player has control over it, then it can work for them.  Not saying that's the better way of going, there are those that love PvP.

But not everyone.

There's more to conflict than "I'm an evil mustach twirler."  Different levels, in fact.  There is the world shaking conflict, right down to the conflict between a small group.  It's whatever that group wants.  Or individual.  Each person wants to have fun, which is more important than either rp or PvP.  With out there being fun, than both of the other items are pointless.

Having said that, then it should also be pointed out that players should respect other players.  If they want to PvP, let 'em.  If players don't want to PvP, then maybe take that into consideration.  It's not hard to ask.

[Jocularity]

In My opinion, A good majority of fun comes from what happens to people around me, not just myself. If you unleash an event that has been quietly Prepared by two people, everyone there will enjoy it.

As long as i'm expecting it ooc, I Am quite happy to let my RP world be as free-flowing and lifelike as possible. I Would welcome largely character changing events as long as they are done well. I.E, Not having my lvl 10 character backstabbed by an Epic without warning.

Potentially Frustrating experiences are definantly something that should be thought out.

[Sakes]

My point was the NWN engine is not set up to handle balanced pvp.  RP doesn't add into the equation, nor do our server rules.  I never said you can't RP and PvP.  I said you can't PvP well under the Neverwinter night's engine.


To your point about RP and PVP mixing though: They don't.  They should, but they don't.

Ideally, people should act the way their character would naturally act without fear of what the person on the other computer is going to think of it, and that means killing people from time to time.

The reality is players don't play that way and probably never will.  The amount of times I've had to:

deal with players complaining about pvp,
complaining another character killed them in a way they didn't think was fair,
complain about another characters power build and how it was so unfair,
complain about how their class is underpowered and everyone else is more powerful,
deal with people taking IC pvp OOC and holding grudges against a player that translate onto other characters,
listen to players who've flat out told me they've broken with how their character would naturally act just because they didn't want to deal with the endless bitching they'd have to deal with if they acted in the way that their character would have -

-is beyond all counting and measure.  

Maybe theres a server out there where people act in the way their character should, don't take things OOCly, and don't get upset when they're character isn't superman sans kryponite aversion....

But it ain't this one.

Sorry.

[TertTheSwift]

Some of the best rp - wait, no, about half of it, which I've run into has directly or peripherally involved pvp.  So has some of the worst... but that was usually because I lost my temper, and I'm calmer now.

PvP does have a place in roleplay, in my opinion, when properly applied.  Myself, I don't engage in it these days unless its the only logical course of action IC, and I try to avoid it even more with my most powerful chars, so as not to make people feel picked on... because normally when I see pvp screw up some rp, it happens because someone, somehow, is being a dick.