Bigby, Revisited

[AelrynBloodmoon]

Be prepared to disregard the first half of this post, as it's probably less feasible than the second half.

In PnP a bigby hand that takes too much damage is destroyed. This total is equal to the hit points of the mage that cast it.

I offer a hopefully simple solution that re-enables bigby and makes it not too broken. Simply, if the target of a bigby spell takes damage from any other spell cast by its original caster, the bigby spell ends. Any physical attack against a person under the effects of a bigby spell suffers a -8 penalty from the cover the hand provides (as per rules for cover and armor class and doubling such bonuses when appropriate) and any missed attack strikes the hand and dispels it.

None of the above conditions apply to the damage from, say, a crushing hand- it will do damage as normal for as long as the spell lasts- (Edit: I realized that probably didn't sound as I meant it- I meant that damage from the hand itself would not end the spell, only damage from other sources.)

Second Edit: And perhaps the spell could be given a persistent effect that caused a new save to end the effect of the hand, similar to the combust spell, every round.

The above modifications are for PLAYERS ONLY.

End first half.

See, in the long run, I don't really want bioware's bigby's back for PvP purposes as coded- It is obvious and blatant cheese. However, I play an evoker, that cannot cast conjuration spells.  As an evoker that cannot cast conjuration spells, not having a bigby spell to bring a halt to that CR 9 minotaur with a great axe that's charging my 88 HP mage hurts... a LOT. Now don't get me wrong, I'm utterly thrilled that I can cast hold monster on it. Except wait, I'm an evoker, and I feel weird carrying more enchantment spells than evocation spells. Not only that, but that still leaves every monster on the server that's immune to paralysis, mind-affecting spells, or that for one reason or another could have a simple, level one "protection from good" spell on it.

To be completely honest, at this stage, having played here for 2+ years and never being able to cast a single bigby spell ever, I would even happily take the re-enabling of bigby spells with a very clear "This Spell is for use against MONSTERS ONLY" disclaimer.

Evokers get one "summon" All the way up until level 13, at which point they get a 1 round per level lasting construct that, frankly, sucks. Mordenkainen's sword produces a rather pathetic, short-lived construct that I wouldn't even summon against the minotaurs, and it's a seventh level spell.

As well, for consideration, a bigby spell that immobilizes is one less chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, horrid wilting, or meteor storm that a mage could cast instead, damaging -every- mob instead of just immobilizing (and maybe damaging, too) one monster.

I myself will not argue that bigby spells are an unfair advantage vs. other players. But given the sheer number of monsters per dungeon, I can't see how it breaks PvE in any sense any more than mass blind/deaf, or timestop.

[AelrynBloodmoon]

Thoughts... suggestions...criticisms... potential problems? Anything besides non-discussion is good. At least discussion means it's being considered- and I want my giant hand of masturbation...err.... bashing.

[tsunami282]

The technical parts of it are on Moth's list to look at. He's away from LotN until exams are over.

Once he's had a look at what's possible, the staff will discuss it further.

[Drewbert]

Think Joyce came up with alternate versions of those a couple years ago.  But, in any case, not really surprised they're still disabled.

[jcly kite]

I wrote up a version of one of the Bigby's spells where the hand itself was targetable for damage and could be destroyed, somewhat ending the spell. It was kind of glitchy, but here's a rough outline of the pros and cons of it:

Pros:
1) The grappling versions of the spell did another grapple check every round that the hand was alive, and if you failed it, you got grappled. I believe this is how it was meant to be.
2) The hand could be destroyed. I don't remember if the HP of the hand was reflected accurately in my version since that kind of stuff is iffy, but it's easily manipulated.

Cons:
1) In order to reflect correct PvP factions, the hand itself was a controlled creature. There were two options for this: you could either make it a summoned creature or a controlled creature. Making it summoned would dismiss any other summoned creature you had and limited you to one hand. I opted to make it controlled, which leads to
2) If the hand was controlled, then if the caster died, it released and became a hostile creature for a little bit before unsummoning. That was kind of weird. I think the caster could also release it, giving the same effect. If the caster manually released it, the hand could potentially be unkillable by the Hostile faction, so the caster's party could decide when to end the effect (ie. never).
3) The hand attacked things, even against my best efforts to force it to continually follow. I gave it a 100% miss chance so it didn't actually do anything, but it was awkward.
4) The script was a looping script for X rounds, which was a potential recipe for lag. Not necessarily so, though; Melf's Acid Arrow and Inferno are examples of other spells that do this, but their "heartbeat" scripts are much less complex (only damage application vs. grapple checks, death checks, caster death checks, damage, etc.)
5) Destroying the hand wouldn't release you immediatety; you would have to wait until the next round pulse for the effect to break.

Strange that I remember all this stuff but that's how it was. Also I don't know if I can even access the old script anymore, but I can give it another look if you really want me to.

I don't check these boards often so PM me about this.



As for the original post, there are a just a couple things I have to say.

I don't think it was ever -just- a pvp issue. Obviously it was ridiculous in pvp, but if that were the only problem, it would have taken just a few lines of script to prevent it from doing anything against players. This would have solved that problem right away.

I don't know how things work on the server now, but years ago, any high leveled person could tell you that landing a powerful disabling spell against a tough creature would pretty much end the fight if you had melee firepower. In other words, it was pretty easy to coast through certain fights by throwing on a Bigby's Forcing or Grasping Hand, which both have VERY high chances of success, and then having a fighter beat it down.

Personally, I think the easiest solution would be to just throw on a saving throw and get rid of the annoying cutscene_immobilize effect. It would make it no more powerful than any mind spell, but in evocation form. There's probably a reason that this was voted against, though I can't tell you myself why since I had left by that point.

[wynter_feline]

If I remember correctly, bigby's is the one spell that can detain a DM avatar as well.  It is grossly overpowered and beyond what it really should be, I guaruntee as soon as Moth gets a chance to read this post he'll explain why things can't be done or give reasons why they need to be changed.

[Drewskie]

thx joyce u rock...

[jcly kite]

The thing with the DM avatar isn't a big issue. That's the kind of stuff that takes like 30 seconds in the script editor to change.

[ObViews]

Yeah the code is called

Code: [Select]

if (!GetIsDM(oTarget))

and nicely wraps itself around the entire spell, preventing it from affecting DMs. And even then, a DM can hotkey the Heal button on their quickbar and use it to free themselves in two clicks (or one key and one click, depending on your tastes. Not that it's extremely important..).

I recall vaguely hearing something about a revisited version of Bigby's being worked on by Moth, quite some time ago. However, those spells are not too big a loss IMO, until the Hand can be somewhat made into a creature that can be killed and dispelled.

[machmoth]

Hello, friendly kin folk.  I do hope I'm missed.  That which whitekite above mentions is something we worked a bit together on, and joint problems we ran into.  We found ways around the single summon limit, though neither of us were very happy with what we had to do to accomlish it.  The second matter, using domination, is simply something we can't do, since domination forces the default henchmen scripts on the hand.  (okay, it's possible, but an even more ugly solution)  I may be able to use a few tricks I learned with the Paladin mounts to accomplish the things I long ago thought possible, making the hand an NPC henchman of sorts.  Not pretty.  Hell, down right ugly as code goes, but perhaps seemless to the player's eye if well accomplished.

Looking at the 3.5 rules, I doubt the hands will be pure PnP compliant.  It's possible, but in a realtime setting, just not practical.  I'll likely have to meet Bioware half way and come up with something action-oriented fiendly.  But, then many of you know I've never been pure PnP hardcore in my designs.  (The idea of a glove designed to grant more control over the spell hasn't escaped my thoughts completely, but that's a concept for later down the coding chain.)

I'm still without my own computer (as it sits in a garage, steadily gathering slime), so don't expect a quick response.  You've waited over a year, though, so I guess a while longer isn't exactly an eternity.