Stealth Equipment

[PinkEvil]

The issue of stealth equipment keeps arising. One of the major points I have heard in all this debating is that a lot of players felt that their arguments weren't being heard and/or cared for. That is something the DMs have taken seriously, and this is our attempt at working out a better solution.

The DMs have decided to stand by the fact that stealth/detection gear should be limited to one item slot. However, which slot is now open for discussion. We've heard no objections regarding the helm for detection, so this player poll is about stealth.

The question is whether the stealth bonuses should be moved to another item slot. Choices I've heard mentioned are:
- Amulet
- Cloak
- Boots

Pros and cons I have heard through the discussion:

Amulet

Pro:
- For rogues, the typical alternative amulet would be either +5 AC, which can to some extend be replaced by Snake Skin Oil, or +5 saves which can be granted from various other items.
- An amulet is a light item, so having a lot of choices in amulet is possible without suffering encumbrance.
Con:
- Although magical enhancements can be added to any item, amulets don't immediately scream camouflage.
- Permanent natural AC can only be gained from an amulet. Snake Skin Oils are dispellable and expensive. It's a big trade-off.
- For the above reason, using the amulet slot for stealth promotes item swapping.
Neutral
- The occasional stealthy wizard/cleric has been hit hard by this change since their spell slot bonuses cannot be immediately recovered after item swapping.

Cloak

Pro:
- A cloak is something that even without magical enhancement can be used to conceal a person. It makes sense that a cloak can benefit stealth.
- For rogues, the typical alternative cloak would be either +5 AC or +5 saves, both of which can be found on other items (rings and amulets), so it isn't a major trade-off.
Con:
- Cloaks are rather heavy, and having more than one might take up a lot of lbs as well as space in a rogue's backpack.
- Swapping cloaks for an instant stealth boost isn't feasible ICly - even less so than the smaller items.
- Another stealth item change/nerf is bound to be at disadvantage to some players/characters. Too much hassle, maybe.
Neutral
- The occasional stealthy, charisma based character is going to be hit hard by this change since the nymph cloak is vital to most of those builds and spell slot/special ability bonuses cannot be immediately recovered after item swapping.

Boots

Pro:
- Boots, even without magical enhancement, can be made to reduce the sound of steps. It makes sense that boots can promote stealth.
- Unlike a cloak, boots can be swapped without it visibly showing in game. It might be iffy, but at least it's good for immersion.
Con:
- For rogues, the typical alternative boots would be +5 AC, +3 Dex. With dodge AC being the only stackable source of AC, that is a major trade-off.
- For the above reason, using the boot slot for stealth promotes item swapping.
- Another stealth item change/nerf is bound to be at disadvantage to some players/characters. Too much hassle, maybe.
Neutral
- Using the boot slot for stealth would be a major boon for the occasional stealthy mage since boots represent one of the very few item slots they can swap without disturbing spell slots.

Now, go ahead and vote. Let us know what you think!
 

[NineCoronas]

To be honest, I'd rather a split of MS to Boots and Hide to Cloaks.

[ZippyConspiracy]

While the idea is sensible, I think it would make people even more angry because then they'd lose two item slots instead of just the one.

[Tails1879_]

Cloak

Pro:
- A cloak is something that even without magical enhancement can be used to conceal a person. It makes sense that a cloak can benefit stealth.
- For rogues, the typical alternative cloak would be either +5 AC or +5 saves, both of which can be found on other items (rings and amulets), so it isn't a major trade-off.
Con:
- Cloaks are rather heavy, and having more than one might take up a lot of lbs as well as space in a rogue's backpack.
- Swapping cloaks for an instant stealth boost isn't feasible ICly - even less so than the smaller items.
- Another stealth item change/nerf is bound to be at disadvantage to some players/characters. Too much hassle, maybe.
Neutral
- The occasional stealthy, charisma based character is going to be hit hard by this change since the nymph cloak is vital to most of those builds and spell slot/special ability bonuses cannot be immediately recovered after item swapping.

Cloaks, at least from what I've seen in the stores and some loot, usually range from AC (Deflection), universal saves, both, damage reduction, or charisma. The AC and saves easily can be used on rings, and the AC is still Deflection (So you'd only want one with AC on anyway).

Charisma, ICly, would probably make sense as a sacrifice to being able to hide or move silently. What's more stealthy, the charming rogue with a bright cloak, or the one with a camo pattern that appears just slightly more ugly?

If it's going to be one item, I think it'd make more sense for it to be on cloaks.

[ObViews]

There are many pros and cons to each and every one of them.

For my part, if this was to be a 'realistic' choice, I would go with the cloak, without question. It's the very symbol of stealth after all.

If I were to go with pure mechanics however...
*chooses... belt*

Why? Because, simply put, what enchantments there are on belts were never an appealing choice for my stealth characters in any module I played at.

They're also very easy to swap, hold no mental stat bonus that I know of nor spell slots that I remember. Correct me if i'm wrong.

[PinkEvil]

Seing that the stealth skills are dex based, I think the +3 dex belt is a bad tradeoff. It essentially lowers your max hide/MS.

Also, I personally have no sympathy for stealthy casters (despite the fact that I want to make one), so I actually prefer the chosen item slot to be bad for casters  :twisted:

[ZippyConspiracy]

Yeah, losing the belt option would really suck, I think. You can get strength and dexterity there, also, not that there are many sneaky clerics around...but there is a belt which can give bonus spell slots. I think cloak or amulet is the best option at this point, but I have chosen not to vote in either case.

[void incarnate]

To be honest, I'd rather a split of MS to Boots and Hide to Cloaks.

As someone married to stealth characters since Day 1, I actually agree with this. To a point.

Players of stealth-based characters know they're limiting their options by being stealthy. Two skills, plus at least moderate investment in Dexterity, eat into a lot of what a character can do with itself. I can probably make the stealthiest character on the server, but in doing so I fully understand that I will not win going toe-to-toe with strong archers or melee types, and will need to adjust battle plans accordingly. If I'm going to make a sneak-based character who'll deliver 10d6 sneak attack damage per hit, plus Crippling Strike, against flat-footed opponents who simply can't see me while stealthed, who can use magic items to augment my abilities via UMD, who will likely have a pretty good Reflex save and maybe even Discipline score depending on my classes, I'm okay with the trade-off of getting spanked in open combat with a dedicated archer or fighter type, a druid, or a cleric. When the sneak dictates the battle, he'll beat most others if he's set up for it. If the sneak is caught unawares, or the battle develops fully, he's usually in trouble, but UMD gives him a wider margin for error that generally only high-HP characters have. Clerics and some druids give the hardest time to sneaks, but they're also the two most powerful classes in the game (...bar none).

The problem that I have is when the stealth bonuses keep shrinking due to nerfs. If you're going to nerf the total bonuses, allow both stealth skills on the same item, and consider having two different items that allow this. If you're going to allow higher bonuses to the stealth skills, break them up into two items. Apply the same standards to the detect skills.


-Void

[Shade6.7]

Not to derail this thread any further, but I would just like to point out Stealth bonuses were never nerfed, and I don’t think there is any intention of ever doing so. At least I would be strongly opposed to it, if there ever was.

[ZippyConspiracy]

Is that your final answer? >.>

[Tails1879_]

Shameless bump on this 3 month old topic, for those that might have missed this little discussion and would like to join in.

And...

Are there still any plans on changing the Hide/MS bonuses from amulet to whatever becomes (or has been) decided upon in this vote?

[PinkEvil]

Yes, it was decided that we transfer over to cloaks. I think the process died away when I went away for my summer holidays. I'll pick it back up when I'm able to join LOTN again, if no ones does it before me.

[Dengar]

I will put in My two cents, though may be too late, or you just don't care.


It should be any of the following:

Cloak, Amulet, Ring, or boots.

None should be better than a +2 (except maybe the ring. Give a cool meaning behind it. ((and one that makes sense))

Reason being, anything granting that bonus, is ussually in most games I have played, for low level rouges.

No need to give a +5 when you can buy the Items that grant camoflage, or invisibility.



Just a thought.

[shadowangel]

Hide and MS would also make sense on the leather and clothing armours, What with camoflauge and clothing designed to be quieter etc.

[Kattze]

Speaking of which who are the active DMs these days?