Paladin RP

[machmoth]

It's been touch upon at length, embedded inside other topics.  Might as well give it its own room to breath, without the possibility of "no, we're talking about..." derailing it.

Playing a paladin is tough.  The Lawful Good alignment alone is somewhat difficult for many people, but add on codes of conduct, an expectation in attitude, and a near unbreakable stereotype, and you've got a challenge.  In my on and off playtime, I've been playing Ashta, my "paladin in training".  She's just a warrior, with the urge to become a holy warrior.  But, with a draconic god, she's forced to learn on her own as she goes.  It's been pretty eye opening, really.

A few opening observations.

WWPD?
What would paladins do?  Paladins are one of the few classes that ride the rail when it comes to how they should act.  Normally, people will not correct you on what you decide for your character.  Paladins are the exception.  I've found that every player is an arm chair paladin, and will tell you when you've done something unpaladinly, no matter how subjective the situation.  No one sets you straight if your rogue leaves an easy gold pouch unstolen.  A wizard who passes up a scroll isn't slapped on the hand.  Even clerics, which probably should have some sort of heavenly code, are given a pretty long leash.

Awful Good
People have a hard time with the Lawful Good alignment.  It's generally considered fairly conservative in practice, in our OOC social period of progress and experimentation.  Most of us know that laws are made by humans, not all of which are well meaning and selfless, and as such aren't always synonymous with good.  History has shown that doing the right thing sometimes means doing the wrong thing, and in a world as full of darkness and corruption as Faerun, we're forced to make that differentiation more often than not.  But, as a paladin, you are expected to uphold both without exception.  You are faced with these very human decisions, but as something slightly more than human, you are expected to have your cake and eat it too.  Should you fail, you've failed at being a paladin.

My own experiences with Ashta in this category have forced me to favor Good over Law, which I think is generally the case if you want to maintain that favorable public eye.  When this has bothered her (for failing to be the paladin she is aiming to become), her friends often console her by pointing out that by not being a paladin, she's able to do what's right when they would not.  Unconvinced that she could somehow be "gooder" than a paladin in her untrained state, she continues to seek a way to fill two buckets with one.

Stereotypes
When we were kids, we would do things to get into trouble.  When someone stepped up to stop us, they were a stick in the mud.  It doesn't matter how dangerous or immoral it might have been.  Paladins, by their nature, are forced to be well behaved.  However you may break the mold, they're going to be somewhat clean and chaste.  There are few to none that would join in, should someone come up with the bright idea to "get sloshed and find some whores".  And should you manage to rationalize it, it definitely fails the "WWPD" test.  As such, paladins are pidgeon-holed into the stereotypes of prudishness, self-righteousness, and dullness.

Ashta doesn't get a paladins stereotype, because she isn't a paladin.  It's given me a point of view just outside the circle.  When she claims she's training to be one, she often receives responses like "why would you want to do that, you're such a good person", or various other scoffs at her vision.  Even though her goals and behavior are usually the same as any paladin, people often consider her a better person than one, just for not actually being one.

[Jocularity]

I Understand all of this, and a lot of the time i'm hesitant to play Bergo.

But there are a lot of variables.

What some people may or may not consider sometimes is that "Lawful" can just be a character's personal code, doesn't necessarily have to apply to the law of the local government. If you were to take your Paladin to a less forgiving place they could be as much as outlaws.

Imagine one in Thay, seeing many people in slavery is going to have quite an effect on them. Now, is the paladin going to follow the rules of legal slaveholding, or will he find an opportunity to release them?

If a Paladin found proof of the "Good" King's hidden agenda of evil, will he/she seek to draw this villain out? Defacing the family name to do so?

If a Paladin is only driven by his/her code, which should comply well enough with local leadership in most RP circumstances save an occasional detail, it could grant them a little more freedom.

I don't know how much that helps, but thats what i can say.

[Sakes]

I just want to chime in about that second bit regarding Lawful vrs Good.   The thing to remember is that Paladins don't unnecessarily uphold "Laws" they uphold "Justice."  This means that theres much less conflict between "Law" and "Good" then there would initially appear to be.

As you pointed out, not all laws are just, laws are written by whoever has the power, not the morality, and that means there are many situations where the Paladin is forced to break a law.... but that doesn't mean hes not being lawful.

Theres a religious sect in America called the Quakers, most well known for the mascot of Quaker Oaks.  Whats not so well known is the fact that many Quakers were involved heavily in the underground railroad, helping slaves escape from the south into Canada.

Strictly speaking, helping slaves escape is illegal.  Its against the Quaker religion to break a law, and its also against the Quaker religion to lie.   At the same time, Slavery is also strongly against their ideals.  

The Fugitive Slave Act specifically stated helping escaped slaves was illegal.  However, the Bible in Deuteronomy 23:15 states: "THOU SHALT NOT DELIVER UNTO HIS MASTER THE SLAVE WHICH IS ESCAPED FROM HIS MASTER UNTO THEE."

Most would find this a conflict of interest for the well meaning Quakers, and they were same conflict on how to best help abolish slavery.  

By and large though, most felt that the law of God superseded any law written by man, particularly The Fugative Slave act.

Is this being unlawful?  Not in my opinion.  They believe strongly in a specific set of rules.  They believe in a well organized and just society.   Following your own code of conduct is still Lawful even if its different then the rest of society.
 
Another situation is when a paladin needs to withhold information but can't lie.  Sometimes refusing to answer gives away as much information as answering, in which case the paladin needs to make a moral decision.  This is much more of a gray area, and sometimes it requires the paladin to walk a very fine line.

Often Quakers were asked if they were harboring slaves.  Naturally refusing to answer would mean they were, but they can't lie either, so what do you do?

The Quakers would answer that no, they aren't harboring slaves, but they felt this wasn't a lie.  They were harboring repressed human beings, not slaves because no man is a slave to another.

A fine line?  Sure.  Unlawful?  I don't think so.  They're obeying a law they feel is above and beyond the laws of mortal men.

When a paladin is faced with a law they don't want to obey the important questions to ask are:  "Does this law run counter to the beliefs of my deity?"  and "Is this law Just?"

If the answer to the first is yes, and the second no, then the paladin is obligated to break the law.    Completely abandoning your beliefs simply because someone else tells you to (Even if that someone has legal power) isn't lawful, thats chaotic.

To sum it up, to a paladin an unjust law isn't a law.  All Laws are rules, but not all rules are Law.   If a rule fails to be just, thats all it is, a rule.  To call something a "Law" it has to be just, and if a Law is just then it doesn't go against the Lawful Good code.

[BraliusMelchior]

Sakes laid it out a lot better than I could...

Once you find the balance between Lawful and Good, and make them meet to fit the religion - the rest is pretty simple, IMO. Paladin's are so straightforward, and you're GIVEN a way to act. The only challenge I found in playing a Paladin is retaining enough flaw for others to effect their faith, because that's what truly makes the class interesting to me. Despite human flaws, being able to persevere.

[TertTheSwift]

Unless the deity in question is Helm, I can think of no deity who -has- paladins who would want their paladins to choose the lawful course over the good course - barring situations where the integrity of the rule of law itself is at stake.

And yes, Sakes... for the second or third time I can think of, I agree with you whole-heartedly.  Well said.

[theMannequin]

So far, I've got three paladins.  Each one is played differently.  Sywyn is probably the most difficult to play, being a paladin of Tyr.  Justice, and in that regard, truth, are held with highest priority.  But he also has a rather humble nature.  He believes paladins don't have to engage in a crusade of good versus evil.  It could be something as simple as helping to build a school, or dwellings for homeless.  I had him living in Mirabar for the longest time (due to the fact the temple of Tyr was located there) and through his association with the dwarves he gained a good knowledge of their ways and respected them a great deal.  In particular, the ability to forge weapons and armour.  Which, back in the day, I had the chance to rp some of that out (this is before my two year hiatus to City of Heroes).

Pania has been a bit more difficult at first.  As I researched, law (justice) isn't the driving force of Sune, but she still has the need to uphold law.  But her driving force has been always to help foster love, relationships, companionship.  Probably the best example of that so far was a recent talk with Le'vari as he lamented missing Rhydin, Caradus and others from the "old days."  Yes, it took Pania until level 20 to get on track with what she needed to do as a magically touched paladin of Sune (I call it that, as she is a sorceress/paladin).  But, that can be expected, being a bard most of her life, and kind of a little shit at times.  Her attitude had to change, and she became rather frustrated with all these new rules that she had to take into account.  Needless to say, it was a learning experience.

Probably one of my favourite paladins so far (and keep in mind, I like playing the other two) has been Avalona Xanthe.  She's a ghosthunter.  Ghosthunters are, typically, moody loners who don't socialize very well with others.  Even in a party, they will divert course if passing by a crypt.  This will be done, even if the crypt is not their main objective.  They are so focused on the destruction of undead, that they do not see past that.  Ava, though, is also a halfling.  One of the most social of the races in NWN and D&D.  Halflings are rather cheerful and playful beings, where celebration is very much a part of their culture.  Food, drink, song and dance are common place in halfling settlements.  Now think how much of a split personality a halfling ghosthunter would be.  And, don't make fun of her pony.  "Nein!  Is not pony.  Is might var horse."

There's more than just the paladin side of things behind a character.  A character has to be more than just a caricature.  There has to be some personality behind the character.  Why did this person decide to become a paladin?  Tragedy in the family forced the person to walk a certain path?  A higher calling?  Chosen by the gods to become a champion?  Or a need to do good and justice in the world?

There is also more than just the paladins played in NWN and LotN.  But thanks to game mechanics, a good number of the very interesting ones aren't there.  One of the ones I read back in PnP was the Paladin of Horus-Re.  More a specialty priest, but classed as a paladin, Paladins of Horus-Re weren't lawful good, but chaotic good.  For one reason; Horus-Re is the god of vengeance.  Vengeance cannot run the same path with law.  Another interesting one I read is the paladin of Eilestraee.  An interesting paladin, as almost all are female, and almost all are drow.  They promote peace, joy and harmony.  And they have an extreme hatred for any who follow Lolth.  However, if they manage to convert a follower of lolth, they can expect a boon.  But more often than not, Paladins of Eilestraee will end up in a battle to the death with those who follow Lolth.

I've got mre later.

[machmoth]

I think that you laid it out pretty good.  So, I think I'll muddy the waters a bit with something more Good/Evil aligned, rather than law.  In playing/watching both paladins and my wannabe paladin, there have come situations in which the character has stood up for an evil character because they felt what a good character (sometimes even another paladin) was doing to them was wrong.  Rather often, the goodly character will point out (either OOC or IC) that the paladin is breaking their code by standing up for an evil person.  I've had discussions with people in which they've told me the main reason they didn't want to be a paladin was because they felt they weren't allowed to befriend and help evil people, which they felt wasn't being good at all.

[theMannequin]

Personally, I'd love to see the detect evil tool scrapped.

[Jocularity]

Me too. Mine keeps Breaking anyway.

[CurlyHairedProphet]

Personally, I'd love to see the detect evil tool scrapped.

Much of this thread explains why they scrapped it in 4th Ed.  One of the best decisions ever in my opinion.

Edit: Pronouns, man.  Pronouns.

[Valraenar]

Personally, I'd love to see the detect evil tool scrapped.

That is a paladin ability, but ...

... I believe a character of mine had an evil, roguish friend stealthily hiding next to him, whispering about random things, when a paladin must have detected evil.  Sensing evil in my general direction, and not seeing the stealthy rogue, assumed my character was evil.  Word gets around OOCly, and I have a lot of people treating my character ICly as if he's evil, as in "Ah HA!  You can't fool me, I see through you; and, just wait, you'll make a mistake and I'll have known all along!"

Of course, my character was good aligned, and it was all alot of metagaming, and I suppose the point is, getting a bearing and range on your evil isn't fool-proof.

I've seen on one server, the tool would give the paladin the name of the evil individual, and even make their characters flash red for a few seconds (only to the paladin's sight).

One thing I've never understood is the metaphysics of sensing evil.  Since evil is a condition of consciousness, sensing evil unrelated to a particular entity (without identifying the individual explicitly) always seemed a contradiction or impossibility.

[machmoth]

I've always treated the sense evil ability sort of like the ability to feel karma.  By closing their eyes and shifting their senses to this alternate plane, they can see shadows of unatoned deeds, blood still on people's hands, and the like.  It's all very vague, as it's not a natural state of vision for humanoids, though a paladin is far more versed at it than others.

Ultimately, it's not a very useful ability.  To know that someone in a general area has done some misdeed, or lots of little misdeeds, is all well and fine, but it really only serves as a means to judge them by prematurely.  I think paladins already have a reputation for being overly judgmental.  It also really doesn't settle well with the static nature of alignment.  If you want to think of the darkness in terms of "sin", which builds and cleanses like dirt, then someone who is lustful and selfish could show just as tainted as an assassin.  You wouldn't strike down a prostitute with your sword for being a plague upon the land.

[theMannequin]

In terms of how I recall it used in AD&D (2nd ED) the detect evil ability was the same as detecting an evil motive.  The paladin would become aware if someone was attempting to pick someone's pocket, or would sense something wrong if someone was lying.  Try as one might, I don't know if the paladin's detect evil ability (or tool) is working in that way.  If someone is just merely leaning against a tree, are they actually doing anything evil?  Not really.  Last I checked, leaning against a tree wasn't against any law.  Currently, though, I do feel that the tool provided is moving toward people metagaming someone's alignment easily, or, as Telundune pointed out, mistakenly identifying someone's alignment as evil.  I do remember a time when the tool used to say "So and so is mildly evil" and I believe at one time it identified exactly what their alignment was.

But I'd still like it scrapped.

[AelrynBloodmoon]

I don't really have a problem with the detect evil tool existing. On the other hand, I have a -huge- issue with it existing, without its appropriate counterparts being coded. Detect Good, for blackguards, and, -most- importantly, several spells that exist for the sole purpose of defeating "Detect Blank" spells.

Misdirection ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/misdirection.htm ) should be available to bards and mages to thwart detect evil.

Undetectable Alignment ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/undetectableAlignment.htm ) was specifically made to thwart the alignment detection series of spells (both good and evil) and should be available to clerics, bards, and paladins (for the benefit of eluding magical searches for good beings.)

Non-Detection ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm ) should be available to rangers of high enough level to cast 4th level spells, mages, and Trickery domain clerics, and provides an opposed caster level check to stop all forms of divinations.

I think including one class's ability to detect evil without giving any other classes their proper ability to nullify such devices -is- wrong and unfair- either both should be included, or neither, as it otherwise presents the ability given with a very clear advantage that it was not meant to have in being an absolute that can't be prevented.

____________________________

As a set of side points that are semi-relevant but not to the main point regarding some other things in this thread-

I think the whole slavery issue is a bad example for this thread, because in the world of Faerun slavery isn't really viewed quite the way it is in our world today. Moving on.

While it's true that back in the second-edition days unless the creatures were inherently evil (things like undead, extra-planar evils) or exceptionally powerful (9th level or above) intent (whether active, expectent, etc) was required to detect evil, I've never been a huge fan of sticking to too many of the mechanical features of second edition (although I did certainly love the system.)

I've always thought of a paladin detecting evil in what I suppose is a cliche-ish way to view it- invoking the ability causes him to "see" things differently- seeing evil causes him to see a darkness- the more malignant the evil, the "darker" the darkness. For example, a common brigand might just cause a shadowy presence to appear before his eyes, while a balor might cause an unholy, abysmal, gaping blackness to appear to his senses. To use a cheesy example with my own characters, I imagine a paladin using detect evil on, say, Talic, would result in seeing an aura of darkness surrounding a core of almost blinding white (goodness) fighting to overcome the darkness that surrounds him. (The tortured essence of an assassin desperately trying to achieve great good with ultimately non-good methods and tools.) Of course, in general, I believe that only a presence and not a specified individual is discerned, unless it's just you and the paladin with no one else around- of course, this is never the case in camp since there are always merchants around as well.

[theMannequin]

See, though, that's one of the reasons why I'd like to see the tool gone.  Currently, it identifies an evil aspect.  And the assassin that is trying to be good, should be able to converse with a paladin without the paladin screaming "evil begone!"

I still think the tool should be removed, as the aspect of metagaming outweighs the aspect of good role play.