Locked Topic - Roleplaying

[BraliusMelchior]

This post is based on a previous post by theMannequin that was locked. I'll do my best to remain constructive, while at the same time hopefully giving some good information for anyone who wants to read and possibly take something away from this.

First - I'd like to mention that over the years, I've conversed with Mannequin on and off, sometimes serious conversations regarding RP while others just light conversation while sitting on a near empty server with nobody else around. Almost every single time he's voiced his opinion to me, it's been something I've agreed with. I think we have similar viewpoints on the issues, so I understand the depth behind the topic that was created previously and the frustrations he expressed. The next bit is my blunt opinion on the RP style shared by players that Mannequin was likely trying to get through to.

This server has always had a wealth of RPers that truly do RP -at- you, rather than with you. It's something I had a very hard time accepting and still do. I don't know if they all know who they are, and couldn't think of an example off the top of me head, nor would it be productive to mention it publicly to embarass or provoke anyone anyway. The issue is that most people create their character with a lot of pride in it as players... this pride corresponds into personality traits in the characters making them:

A) Fearless/Invincible
B) Having only "comfortable" weaknesses
C) Not effected by outside influences

There are other negative effects of this of course, but I think those 3 are the major ones that effect others and make the game less fun for all parties involved - I know it makes it less fun for me. Let me explain each in a little more detail for clarification:

Fearless/Invincible

This usually has to do with avoiding the idea of permanent death and/or embarrassment. People will rush head first into obviously fatal situations because there is the small chance they will come out on top and appear heroic/brave/impressive, and will not have to worry about death because there's a respawn button and they have the freedom to make up any story they want. Rogues will stand up to mages and barbarians because they know they have insane AC/saves/etc, ignoring the fact that the barbarian may be an intimidating giant or the mage may have a balor standing behind him/her. Knowledge of mechanics normally prompts this "god-mode", but it also partly has to do with avoiding embarrassing situations that can result in running into a "bully."

CorruptingVoid (I think that was the login) broke me of this habit by one simple action: Her character threw my halfling upside down into a trash barrell. This simple action coupled with her attempts at being an intimidating fighter type was enough for me to realize the quality attached to allowing your character to be embarrassed, and detaching your own dignity from your characters.

Having "Comfortable" Weaknesses

This one is interesting, because a lot more people have this habit. The most common example - someone's parents are killed. Cliche, right? How many people do you know currently playing have family that they must regularly visit? I'm talking about NPCs that may be older or vulnerable to the harsh world such as elderly parents or children. Not PCs that are going to be strong and able to defend themselves...

Family is a large weakness for anyone that has enemies, so most don't want to claim as having any family that could be placed in that situation. So instead, they have the personality weaknesses attached to having their parents murdered... when you think about it though, this isn't a hard one to play out, because EVERYONE's parents were murdered. So it's the norm, and you can simply emulate other people's reactions to this, when not many ACTUALLY know how the character's state of mind really would be. There are so many different examples that could be stated to support this, but I think this one already states my point.

This one I broke myself by analyzing the weaknesses of each of my characters, compared to other people's characters, and determining how much it truly effects the character. Social weaknesses are the most difficult for me, but can be the most rewarding in adding a bit of fun for those that could run laps around my character in conversation. It gives an ego boost to bard players for sure

Not Effected By Outside Influence

My absolute #1 most hated flaw in an RP playstyle. A LOT of people were doing this when I was playing regularly last, which actually drove me away. People were making characters and setting a "path" for their character development. Rather than setting a goal and going with the punches, they had specific events that had to happen in the life of their character, and NOTHING would set them off this path. If anything did (which usually required DM intervention) then they would leave for a while, or just up and quit the server entirely.

Some people's paladins can never fall, no matter what. Some people's evil necromancers could never turn to good. There are others who could NEVER be persuaded to worship another deity. This is a problem that will frustrate anyone that truly wants to RP with someone. This is the prime example of someone that RP's -at- someone rather than with them. You are the star of your own show and everyone else is just part of the show... so hand them the script and enjoy your stardom, right?

I don't know what to say about breaking this habit. There's just a point when you realize how much the game is for everyone else as well as yourself. It may be against someone's personality to worry about anyone elses fun.

I think it's just wrong to play like that though... nuff said.


_________

So, this is my version of "what does it take for people to RP??"

Idenfitying your own weaknesses and improving on them, that's all it takes. These are the 3 weaknesses that ruin the game for me.

The intention of mentioning weaknesses that drive me away is to make others aware of what I believe to be an accurate description of nonconstructive RPing. If just one person realizes their doing something to drive players away and -try- to improve, then it was worth typing this whole thing out.

If someone has beef with my playstyle, I'm not one who is insulted easily, so just say it. PM or public, I honestly don't care. I appreciate criticism... an easy way to identify my own weaknesses is to have someone point out the ones I don't see in myself. So be as harsh as you like, should you feel the need.

Thanks to anyone that's read this far... and I apologize if it was a waste of your time.

[Kattze]

I agree with every point you have made and as a DM I can say each of those traits is very frustrating to deal with.

CAPTAIN INVINCIBLE!!
I once did a quest involving a blue dragon which was threatening to burn the town if they didn't find the cure for his disease.  The players not only stopped the evil Talona priests from poisoning the dragon, they decided it would be fun to kill the wyrm.. or try.  Because DMs don't let players die right?  Sakes spent the next half hour killing the players over and over because they KEPT TRYING.
Dragons really are one of the most powerful beings in Faerun.  "But I'm level 25!"

IMMERSION
Have we become too worldly for roleplay? That may be the silliest question I could ask but I have to wonder.  From my experience as DM I seem to have a hard time getting players immersed in any events I'm running.  It may be a failure on my part but do they see my name and know what sort of style I am going to go for and what direction I'm going to take?

Do you see a new character and click on their portrait to see the account name before replying? I'd be lying if I said I hadn't.  We DMs have it lucky since you can't click an NPC for account information. It adds a sense of anonymity and excitement of the unknown.  Atleast it does when I am on as a player and an NPC jumps to life before me.  If I knew it was Sakes beginning a quest I'd likely think "Oh crap another chain death quest here we go" and log off to cry instead.

Another example is that I began a quest involving a murder scene in a bedroom.  I had a player that must have held down the TAB key, saw nothing, and gave up.  It took them a while to actually emote searching and inspecting to yield the quest item.  Is this common?  Am I out of touch with what players want to experience on the server?

THE PEDESTAL

People roleplay for all sorts of reasons.  To relax, to escape reality, to be creeps and hit on internet girls, so my next point may be moot.  As a DM I like to run events, quests and have server storylines.  I've had to give a warning on my most recent server storyline to not get involved if you do not want your character to get damaged in any way.

Two characters have permanently died leaving a husband as a widow, and another is pregnant like the Virgin Mary.  Three are inflicted with a sickness that is slowly killing them.  Extreme? Maybe.. Is it going somewhere? Yes.  Some players refuse to get involved in quests as they do not want their favorite character to veer off the direction they've set.  I call it the Green Fields and Bouncing Bunnies Syndrome.

I don't understand how to run eventful quests if I can't do anything to damage the character or threaten their future.  Fear is the biggest motivator for the human species (Guys we're on HIGH terrorist alert lock your doors!) It doesn't mean I'm going to every time I run a quest but it disillusions me.  My pirate can't wield a feather.  And whats the point in wielding a weapon if the player knows they HAVE to win or JerkFace01 will log off in a tizzy?

What if I instead want to have the players defeated, locked in the bowels of the ship only to fight their way out and figure how to sail the boat back to Port Llast?  Makes a better story than "So we met some pirates and killed them."

I'd like to add, even though it may be offtopic, is that the Chaotic Neutral clique that is popular right now isn't unique and the new black.  I have more respect and interest for those that play the good, the evil and the extremes.  Paladins, blackguards, the necromancer with the plot to take over the world, the halfling rogue who is a FR version of Robin Hood.  Having a paladin on a quest can make things difficult as others may want to take a less respectable approach to enter the Merciful Blade Keep.  And I'd be more inclined to create a quest for a diversified group.

[Shanra]

Both of them speak my mind, so I'm just going to add my own thing right along with this, which is related. What's the topic for today folks?

Freeform RP!

Yep, a long time ago, in the land of the Magic Bubble, it was the players that made the server.  What? Yes you still make the server, but let me elaborate.  The players ran all kinds of things, on their own.  It wasn't DMs that made plots most of the time.  It wasn't DMs who pitted wars against the players, they did it themselves.  In fact, back in the day, mostly all the DMs did was see something going on and aid the players in whatever they were doing.

There would be wars, and conflicts between characters all the time. I remember being in a long fight with a character, and her and her fiance lost.  The opposing team dragged them on top of each other and ran a sword through them both.  Other friends nearby later found them and helped, and it was a lot of fun.  And we.. -gasp- yes we lost.

As much as people like their character to win, good guys don't always win.  And the good RP'ers also know its sometimes losing that makes the person (or character stronger).

I've noticed nowadays, people just won't do anything unless a DM starts it.  Feel free! You're allowed!  Have wars, bring sickness!  If we happen to be on and can aid you in interesting ways, we'll do it, but it doesn't have to be DM driven for you guys to have fun and be creative and make up your own plots.  Going with the sense up above, don't wait for the DMs to RP at you, RP with the people around you, and we'll RP with you too.

Things will happen to your character, but that's what RP is about.  Sometimes it will be good, and sometimes it will be bad.  One of my funnest times on this server was an rather large scheme that was done -all- by a player.  It was rather involved.  (A big plot in this shadow war.)  My character even ended up pregnant because of it.  I rolled with the flow, as did the others involved.  This guy didn't even have a high level character for the longest time.  He did it all with level 1s. We made believe, and I know everyone involved enjoyed this too.

If someone tortures you, you shouldn't shrug it off and go off RP'ing in camp a few minutes later as if nothing happened. Does that even make sense?  Almost any one tortured, especially by a sadistic drow, is going to be shaken by the event.  You will probably find you'd have a lot more fun if you rolled with it, seeing where it might lead in the future, then pretending it never happened, and doing things 'your' way.  If people are just RP'ing at you, and you don't respond, then were is the fun?  What are you accomplishing, and why are you playing?  If my character lashes you 50 times with a whip, by golly, yes I want you to respond, however your character would!

Yes, your character is yours, and I realize people almost always have a goal to where they want to reach this character, but the server is a world where everyone is 'united' in a sense.  Playing like that, you have to realize that the way you reach that goal may be radically different than you imagined, or it may not even happen at all, sometimes for the better, or sometimes for the worse, but isn't that how life is?

What I'm saying here doesn't apply to everyone, but I'm not going to say it doesn't apply to no one.  There are many people like this, and I want to get the message out that its okay to do things!  You don't have wait for a DM to back you up or say okay before you decide to wage a war on the guy whose determine to bring undead in the camp all the time.  If you want to create an evil army with you and your friends and take over camp, well, go ahead and try!

I personally strive for those conflicts.  I've had a character tortured before (probably two).  I've had some events that completely changed my vision of where they were going to end up.  Not always for the better, not always for the worst, but its happened, and I love it when things like that happen.  Its a lot more fun than playing Captain Invincible with no weaknesses and dead parents.  I don't think but one of my many characters has dead parents, and they died of old age!  There are many ways to give your characters interesting lives, weaknesses (that could possibly lead to good RP) and not be invincible and still fun.

Just pick up the phone and dial 1-888-WE RP NOW and give it a try for this free trial offer!

[machmoth]

I always found the concept of a character's family something of an interesting point.  My first main character, Calhi, was initially the ultra-clichéd amnesia type, with no past or attachments but those she made after I started playing her.  Even when that was resolved, and her past revealed, it was discovered that she had killed her parents for betraying her (slight twist, still cliché, of course).  This still left her with no past roots, and let me keep her an independent loner (not in a social sense, but still at her core).  And in this case, I still realize that she was one of the few characters that I acknowledged once having family.

If I go back through most of the other concepts I have, I try my best to make them human, but I rarely stopped to ask where they came from before whatever event and education shaped their life.  Julia, sassy dark and witty.  She's fun to play, but have I ever paused to think how a simple conversation with her own mother would go?  Not really.  Nor do I have an answer.  The very thought of her having a mother seems to create in my mind that situation of your mother showing up at school and embarrassing you, completely destroying whatever image you've created for your friends.  

I don't imagine they get alone well.  She was probably a rebellious teenager, and they probably don't talk often, if ever.  But, the simple idea that there could be someone out there that misses her and loves her, despite the fact that she probably just took those claw-tipped gloves of hers, ripped someone's heart out of their chest, then taunted them with it, just seems to soften her in a light I never would've thought to shine on her.

(This epiphany brought to you by sleep deprivation.  You may rejoin your regularly scheduled discussion.)

[Kattze]

Creating a background helps develop your characters... character!  Julia is dark, sassy and witty.. but why? Where did that stem from?

When I put those three descriptions together I get the picture of a spoiled single child of a noble family.  Her wild nature was never tamed, it may have even been nurtured.  Or was she neglected completely?

Even those simple ideas of background brings a few strengths and weaknesses into place.  She looks down on others, is headstrong, has a sharp tongue that may get her into trouble.  If she was neglected as a child she may have little respect for those that try to guide her or tell her what to do.

I may have gotten Julia's personality completely wrong but that's one of the many directions you can take with just three words.

[ObViews]

The Internet as a Roleplaying medium
I think it's very important to understand that the internet (chat in particular) is a very skimmed communication media, where only text gets by. It's perfect to conceal things like your gender, your age, your ugly face, your squeaky voice and your smelly body odor  from others when roleplaying something that doesn't look anything like you (or isn't even the same species), but it comes with consequences that no one here has excuses to ignore now that they clicked this and read the article. To put it simply; text communication, no matter the length, can't ever amount to a tenth of what we convey within a tenth of a second in the real world with our bodies. That means tons of text to replace the expressiveness, tons of misunderstandings from reading that text and filtering it through our own mood instead of the mood it was written in, and so on.

So since we're stuck with text where we'd need a body and a voice, what happens when something is 'said' online and inevitably misses some information? Either we ask for further feedback (which is legitimate, as such infos are missing, but it's percieved as pestering), either we assume, through our own way of thinking, what the other meant to convey. The first alternative leads to annoyance, and run others' patience thin. What a silly person, unable to telepathically guess my intent! The second alternative leads to assumptions over assumptions that were assumed from assumptions in the first place; in other words, flawed perceptions. So the people you hate online, and those you love... you hate and love 10% of what they are that gets through, and 90% of what you imagine to replace what text won't convey.

Hopefully this'll answer part of the 'what the hell is going on that makes the RP go so bad so often?' unspoken question. (It's equally valid to explain why RP goes very good too, but that's for another discussion).

Oversized Character Backgrounds and  Stories
I'm the kind who will, on a hunch, create a character with a single run through the character creation screen, use the information from there (looks, class, stats etc) plus two or three loosely improvised guidelines in my mind, then see how it unfolds ingame. The fun part of this method is that, even as the actor of that character, I get to discover the story as if it was being told to me. I have a charcter which, from the very start, is meant to constantly evolve, regardless of the module's character level. But my focus is on actual in-game play. That's where the real story is, to me: living, breathing, evolving, unpredictable. Pre-written text looks kind of stiff, dead and boring in comparison. As such, finding a ten-page biography in a character's examine description (or worse... I actually saw "Character Update [insert date here]" sections sometimes! O_o) is a bit of a turn down to me, so I just close the window. If I want to look at blogs, I'll connect my web browser to MySpace, thank you very much.

Because examples are fun, here is an example of what I mean:


Endless written stories about characters (extensions of the self) pretty much amount to ego masturbation. In that view, excessive backgrounds look like public displays. Not something I'm interested to see unless the involved person interests me in that way.

[BraliusMelchior]

In a sudden burst of light, the gods and goddesses of Faerun swiftly deliver wedgies to the worlds inhabitants.[/i]

There, RP should improve dramatically.

[Haldadae]

I think that because people play for different reasons, and will naturally gravitate toward the people who have similar characteristic/goals to themselves, cliques form. After spending a fair amount of time on the server I know who I tend to get along with and who I do not. I most often like to play with the people I get along with. I know, shocking. That said, there are still some players I don't know well.

I wouldn't ask someone to change/improve the way they play because I wouldn't plan on it either. I'm not sure anyone would. Does anyone think this thread applies to them? :lol:

"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

[Shanra]

Alas, Tolkien's quote strikes true.

I tend to play with people I know I can play with in the style I prefer to play with.  That is not to say I don't want to get to know others, as I've certainly tried (especially recently with a couple of my characters) to expand out to people I don't or haven't played with before.

That being said, no matter how hard you try with some, they have to be willing to try with you.  I've tried to interact with this one person on a few characters, and they might say a few words then run off to go kill things on their own again.  Not much a person can do about that.

As for what Obviews said, I personally like well thought out descriptions.  I don't want it to be annoying as that comic, nor do I want their life story, but I like something that gives me a good sense of the character I'm looking at.  Something I would get when if I actually stood in front of the person in real life.

As for how I create characters? Well, almost all of them have started out like he mentioned.  Marah? I came back after 3 years of absence and I didn't want to play the 3 characters in my vault from3 years ago.  So I wanted a kick-ass scythe weaponmaster.  I had -no- idea what I was going to do with her when I started.  I played around with her for a while, had her in camp, new her alignment, and things developed from there.  Things about her history (I try to keep it all straight) developed sometimes -as- I was telling about it.  It makes it more interesting that way.  Once I get the general idea, the rest gets filled in from there.

That's how my old character Shanra was done, and how my bard Rerien (whose been around for 4 years on this server evolved), that's how more recent characters like Veryien evolved.   You may not know all these characters, but there are some people that do, and I love evolving and making my characters just as much as I like playing them.

And some characters I make just don't evolve to me, so I scrap them.

Anyway, no body said you had to know everything about your character when you made it.  Just avoid the "my parents were murdered" syndrome.  Sure it can happen sometimes, but not to everyone!

[Bad_Bud]

I read somewhere that the best bio is a bio that only describes what someone might be able to see when looking at your character.

I tend to dislike it when a person posts their character's life story in the bio.  I feel that by knowing that story when my character doesn't makes me more inclined to accidentally metagame;  I would rather not know things that my characters wouldn't know, because then I don't run the risk.  It's also more interesting (as a player) to have your character learn about another character progressively as opposed to sitting down and reading some fancy monologue about their life.

Another thing I dislike is when a bio attempts to force your character to do or think something.  Such as:

"The towering man before you smiles widely as you gleefully greet him.  His massive body causes the ground around you to rumble as he hulks towards you rapidly, causing you to quiver in fear, causing you to further urinate all over your new hot pink, gem laden leather pants (you bought them because you thought the rhinestones were pretty and because hot pink is your favorite color).  As you stare down at your ruined pants, obviously humiliated, the man picks you up and snaps your neck.

You wake up in a dark barn, the smell of which reminds you of spoiled milk, like the kind your evil parents tried to make you swallow back when you were a child (before they got turned into undead, of course).  There is a cleric looming above you asking if you are ok.  His scraggly beard reminds you of your pet goat, Harold.  His fluttering green eyes remind you of the misty, decaying forest where your undead parents wander aimlessly, dismembering halflings, for which you and your parents obviously have racist feelings towards.  The cleric laughs at you for being dumb enough to have your neck snapped (if you don't have low INT, please remake your character to help preserve the accuracy of this bio), casting a spell that makes you blind (because you just failed the will save, because your WIS is also low).

You wander about aimlessly without food for three weeks, eventually stumbling back to the spot where you are now, where you spot a towering man before you who smiles widely as you gleefully greet him."

[Haldadae]

I read somewhere that the best bio is a bio that only describes what someone might be able to see when looking at your character.

Just out of curiosity, it didn't look anything like this, did it?

Descriptions

            Having a good character description is vital.  It lets other players see your character more accurately than is allowed by the polygons of NWN.  Here are a few suggestions to help get you started on writing an excellent description:

    * Tell us about your character’s physical appearance.  Some things you might want to include are:  hair color, eye color, height, body type, and how he or she carries themselves.
    * Would we get any kind of impression about your character?  Do they seem open, reserved, happy, depressed, nervous, scared?  Etc.  Don’t tell us too much, just let us know the impression we might get from looking at them.
    * Please do not tell us about your character’s past, childhood, favorite color, fears, or any other information that we would not know by just glancing at them. We cannot tell what your favorite color is, or that your parents are dead. Unless of course you’re wearing their skulls. But even then, we wouldn’t know those were your parents’ skulls.

Here is an example of a good character description:

The Dwarf before you stands shorter than most of his race and his rusty red beard makes him seem even shorter, as it hangs well down past his chest, and is tucked out of the way in his belt. Beneath his fluttering cloak you see the glimmer of plate-mail, and what must be the haft of a great axe by his side. He moves with a stride that seems determined and purposeful.

Here is an example of a NOT-so-good description:
            The Dwarf before you used to be a cleric, but he stopped when he was twenty three because his mom told him that axes looked much cooler then maces. His pet rat was named Bob, and his pet mouse was named Sue, but when Bob killed Sue, the Dwarf was very very sad, and that is why he always cries by himself…      

[Bad_Bud]

No.  

[Jocularity]

I have more respect and interest for those that play the good, the evil and the extremes.  Paladins, blackguards, the necromancer with the plot to take over the world, the halfling rogue who is a FR version of Robin Hood.

>.>

<.<

How about the Gnomish Doctor Who? Hehehe :lol:

[ZippyConspiracy]

RL Values in a Game World

One of the most frustrating things for me is when it seems everyone around you has the values of someone living in this world, and not the values of someone living in FR. For example, just the other day my character walked into camp, and there…standing right in front of her…was a tiefling. Naturally, as a semi ‘good zealot’, she was a little put off and uncomfortable. She didn’t charge the thing with her weapon, but it was very clear that she didn’t appreciate its presence in the camp.
The reaction?  People ganged up on her (verbally, of course) and accused her of being prejudice. They were treating her as if she was completely wrong to be put off by a tiefling, and asking her how she feels about black people. …Black people? What is this? Real life?

I can understand it may be a little touchy for the players of the characters to view this IG ‘prejudice’ but the difference between the RL prejudice and the game prejudice is that in RL we have absolutely no reason at all to assume that other races are better or worse than us. However, in FR, it states very clearly that evil is in the soul of the tielfing. ‘Black people’ haven’t created a hostile name for themselves by coming to the surface and slaughtering whole villages of innocent people…drow have.

The immediate acceptance of evil races and the verbal butchering of those who aren’t okay with it is one of the reasons why I had originally left the server in the first place. I can understand one or two characters being so naïve as to immediately trust innately evil creatures, but to constantly be ganged up on for being against it…that’s annoying.

(I am aware that this falls under the 'you can't tell people how to RP' category. I am simply voicing my frustrations and understand that likely nothing will come of it.)

[BraliusMelchior]

I hear ya Zippy... I touched that topic before, and left it alone shortly after, because it was too frustrating for me. Another thing about it that frustrated me was that some people that played perceived inherently evil races would avoid camp at all costs... right up until around level 20, then it's off with the hood and standing there as if it's a challenge to anyone who would dare test their build against his/her build.

This was from a looong time ago though, I have some trouble remember names - but I think those that I would be referring too are long gone. The server has gained a great deal of tact and maturity in general since those times.

Though, I kind of miss having that ESL half-orc with the antler helm running around willy nilly asking if "you wan 2 come wit me for xp???"