Fair enough. Fair enough.

Please reply if anyone else is interested, and if there is a particular time you need. Otherwise I'll just add 1 week and do it the following Friday, good?

And you're actually imposing a false restriction there; I'm reading my D&D 3.0 DMG's Blackguard section right now, and I'm not seeing any instances of the word "patron" or any of its synonyms, let alone any notes that the Blackguard can only serve one god or Outsider alone. 

I'll be more careful with my vernacular in the future.

Okay, so Blackguards who delude themselves into thinking that they're really serving Good gods might not work after all (unless they're utterly psychotic or really good at coming up with convincing rationales for their wicked deeds along the vein of "Up is down and black is white," perhaps).  That still leaves plenty of non-Good deities to pick from, however.  More on that in a moment.

Glad you agree on that part.

You seem to have this idea that base classes should be freeform, while prestige classes should be as restrictive as the proverbial eye of the needle.

Right. Which is why WotC made a ba-jillion of them, but only a few base classes. @_@

Yet the Monk and the Paladin, despite being base classes, are quite restrictive.  And prestige classes such as the Loremaster (from D&D) and the Harper Scout (from NWN) are actually quite freeform, despite being prestige classes.  Prestige does not equal severe limitation.  So perhaps we can lay that idea to rest now.

I agree. Both the monk and the paladin are extremely restrictive. They don't make very good base classes. I really wish both were prestige classes, or at least more open to interpretation. As they are it screams restrictive. I think that a Paladin prestige class that is made for Fighter/Clerics would be the ideal. Monks could very well be changed into some kind of martial artist class, and create prestige classes for various monk orders a monk could join. That way you could have even more unique monk abilities. Or just be a badass pugilist.

Harper Scout is VERY restrictive. It's for a select organization. A lot of classes can qualify, sure, but only Harpers can take it. Same reason you can't take a level in Zhentarim Spy without being a Zhent. Or a level in Shadow Thief of Amn without being a member of the Shadow Thieves of Amn.

Loremasters are very also similarly restrictive. You are scholarly. One cannot make an ignorant Loremaster. I requires 10 ranks in 2 separate Knowledge skills. That's a great deal of devotion to knowledge. It requires a good deal of Divination spells, multiple metamagics or item creation feats, and skill focus in one of your knowledge skills. Becoming a Loremaster is quite hard. It's a very specialized type of character.

...unless we go back to those equally permissible Rogue/Blackguards, Monk/Blackguards and Ranger/Blackguards which you apparently keep ignoring because they don't fit your preconceived "theme".  Hide and Move Silently would serve these character builds quite well.  Full plate armor and an ironclad nightmare mount?  Not so much.

Your absolutely right. Each of those classes can make blackguards. And they can make good blackguards. Again we agree.

They still have to be strong though. There are no weakling Blackguards. The cleave feat ensures that... unless you count that weird fact that NwN monks get cleave. *sigh*

I've also previously said you don't have to go the ironclad route, but that is the image. It's a good one. And it is one the class represents. All the blackguard artwork follows it. I've not ignored them at all. I even gave an example of a Ranger/Blackguard.

What is a knight, MadPoet?  Is a knight his armor?  Is a knight his horse?  Is a knight his chivalric bearing, or his coat of arms, or his longsword and heater shield, or his titled land, or the poofy crest on his helmet?  Or are these all mere details and decorations which are ultimately irrelevant to what a knight is: a sworn champion to a cause?

Since you like wiki's:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight

I see.  So you'll break out the "Neutral gods can't support Blackguards, no, no, never" tack for Gond, yet Hoar and the Red Knight get your acceptance, however reluctantly it is given.  Explain this double standard, please.

Simple. I have to because the designers of Forgotten Realms decided to make it canon. Like I said... I wouldn't allow it in my home game. But I have to accept it as faerun canon because it is faerun canon. If you find a passage that says 'Blackguards that serve Gond...' I will have to accept that Gond has blackguards no matter my feelings or thoughts on the subject. Still won't allow it in my home game, but if I was running organized play or a fully canonical faerun I would have to.

But could a sworn champion to a cause instead be a skulking, leather-clad burglar determined to please Mask--and to spread further poverty and misery--with the fruits of his next crime spree?

Yes, but it wouldn't necessarily be a good blackguard. A divine seeker might be a better fit then Blackguard.

Could a sworn champion to a cause instead be that Talona-following plague dog whose weapons are not so much swords as they are diseases?

Sure, but why would this character focus on getting cleave if their weapons are disease? Maybe the concept would be better represented by a blightlord or a cancer mage?

Could a sworn champion to a cause instead be a fur-draped champion of Auril, beneath whose perpetually snow-flecked feet the grass dies and the earth freezes as she works to spread the Endless Winter in her wake?

Absolutely. It could be the first white plate mail Blackguard! 

As for "anti-paladin," heck, by definition, any evil character can be considered an anti-paladin!  Do paladins work to push back the hands of evil?  Then anyone who supports evil's existence in the world--by thought and by deed--opposes the paladin and his work.  Strip away all of the Old School D&D vestiges and "anti-paladin" means "against paladin," no more and no less.  And evildoers of any stripe are just that.

By the letter... yeah. Your right. It's also kind of the mirror effect too. Kind of like how drow are the 'Anti-elf' in a sense.

But on to that other point: Is it the god, devil or demon which makes the Blackguard evil?  Or is it the Blackguard which makes the Blackguard evil?  Yes, the Blackguard needs those gods, devils and/or demons, in some way or another, in order to be a Blackguard.  But they're not the cause or the reason for that Blackguard's potential for evil; that potential was with the Blackguard all along.

Choice makes them evil. Their power comes from the class features, which as a divine source requires a patron of some kind. (if your going by the PnP version with divine spells. The nwn version just has spell-like abilities.)

1)  If a Neutral deity has Evil Outsiders working for him or her, then one of those Outsiders can answer the summoning on the deity's behalf, and that will fulfill the requisite.  The deity himself might even be the "someone else" who summons the Outsider to the Blackguard-to-be's side, as doing so would probably serve the deity's aims.  I'm not seeing anything which prevents this.

I can't think of any off the top of my head, but are there any actual example of neutral deities using demons and devils as minions in Forgotten Realms? If there isn't then that debate is kind of moot. There very well could be examples that I just don't know about.

2)  In the case of Evil deities, we can skip the demons and devils entirely.  Gods are essentially extremely powerful Outsiders...powerful enough to trump archdevils and demon lords, apparently.  So if Shar herself wants to come down and have a civilized chat with your Blackguard-to-be...requisite fulfilled.

Very true. Though the whole 'Summoning' thing kind of throws it off. I agree it's more likely the deity would send a representative instead of popping in themselves. An evil deity in faerun would likely send an evil outsider of some kind. You can cast a 'Gate' spell to call a god. It's just up to the deity whether they step through or not. I doubt any of them will be happy about it.

3)  What constitutes a summoning isn't clearly defined, and I'm not seeing anything which says that it has to be Planar Ally or any other spell.  So if your Blackguard-to-be is praying in Shar's temple, and the prayer goes along the lines of "Shar, please answer this prayer and show me the way to you," and Shar hears your prayer and answers it by coming down and having a civilized chat with your aspirant, would that fulfill the requisite?  I don't see why not.

Conjuration (Summoning). Though I would, as a DM, allow Conjuration (Calling) as well. Those are summons.

For that matter, what if Machmoth's evil character--the one wandering through the Hells--saw a devil standing around and shouted to the devil, "Excuse me!  Could you come over here for a bit?  I'd like to ask you about my quest..."?  Assuming that the devil obliged and responded to the call peacefully, would that alone constitute summoning an evil Outsider?

Technically... no. Strange as that scene might be I can't think of any DM that wouldn't just OK that though. Plane Shift is a Conjuration spell after all, even though it's teleportation instead of summoning.

4)  "Contact" need not involve the manifestation of an avatar and/or a spoken exchange.  If the Outsider chooses to answer your summons by manifesting as a disembodied voice drifting on the wind, it's contact.  If the Outsider appears from thin air and just stands there staring right at you without acknowledging your attempts at communication, it's contact.  If the Outsider remains unseen and unheard yet uses magical illusions to scrawl messages to you on the walls, it's contact.

We're kind of getting a little specific with the semantics but yeah your right in a way. Though the prerequisite of it being a summoned creature kind of imparts the fact it should actually be there. Summoning a marilith shouldn't summon a mariliths disembodied spirit that talks through a creepy snake voice and scratches on the wall. Neat for flavor... bad for summon monster to help in combat.

• That the Blackguard must knowingly consort with demons and devils.  Again, demons and devils are capable of disguising themselves and masquerading as something else if it suits their aims.  It's expected that the Blackguard will know--at least vaguely--what he's dealing with, but is it mandatory?  Is it still consorting with a demon if the demon happens to look and act like a lecherous gnome, and the evil Blackguard goes through life thinking that the "lecherous gnome" with whom he's consorting is indeed a lecherous (yet common) gnome and the voice of his perverted god?

Some are able to hide, not all. Your right in the sense that it doesn't specifically say that. Its not a good idea to make truths from negative truths though. Saying "It doesn't say I can't" doesn't mean that 'it' is something that you can. Better to use positive truths like 'It says that I can'. The wording of the assassin prestige class says 'Must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins," or something to that effect. It doesn't say that the murder must be committed by their own hand. It just says that they must kill someone. Some could argue that means they have to do it with their hands, or even that it must be blatant sword to face murder. Some might argue that spreading a false rumor that gets the person tried and executed does not count as 'killing someone'. We can't be sure. The only thing we can be sure of is that the text says 'Must Kill someone for no other reason than to joins the assassins'. Someone must die, you must be responsible for their killing, and you have to do it to join the assassins and for no other reason. That's it.

• That the Blackguard must knowingly or willfully serve dark deities.  If a malicious, demon-consorting yet non-Talona-worshipping Blackguard dumps a bucket of plague-infected meat down the town well, he's still serving Talona and Talona's dominion.  Whether or not Talona rewards him for doing that is up to her, but she might earn a new catspaw of a Blackguard if she does.  He might be just as happy to keep dumping diseased meat into the water supply of every town he comes across--just to satisfy some sick thirst for power over others, perhaps--even if Talona isn't telling him to do that.  And Talona might be just as happy to prolong his pestilence spree by gifting him with the usual Blackguard perks, even if the Blackguard never once gets on his knees and prays to her.  As long as they both get what they want, the relationship--however delicate it may be--might work.  It's a bit of a reach, as concepts go, but hey...maybe it's more food for stereotype-twisting thought.

it's a huge stretch. Did the character just happen to accidentally have the prerequisites for the blackguard class? Did they gain proficiency with heavy armor, shields, and martial weapons through some kind of divine osmosis or something?

That the deities and the evil Outsiders must be related to each other.  The Blackguard-to-be summons a demon.  The demon teaches him all of the usual evil Blackguard stuff.  The Blackguard then thanks the demon and decides to devote his life to Beshaba.  The demon isn't affiliated with Beshaba in any way yet doesn't object to the Blackguard's intention because hey, it doesn't interfere with the demon's business, so why not?  There's one more Blackguard in the world, the demon has done his job, he doesn't need any lackeys, he's off to do something else now and if that stupid young Blackguard is out there stirring up a mess and drawing attention away from the demon's plots, so much the better.

This is the one option I think would be fine. It meets the prerequisites of the prestige class having contact with evil. The blackguard continues to devote to evil. I see no problem with this.

...and it doesn't at all conform with the medieval Darth Vader stereotype, either!  Do I detect you starting to bend that tired old Darth Vader stereotype?   

So that might be a good start, right there.  What else can you come up with?

Oh absolutely. I encourage new kinds of Blackguards. I just want them to be Blackguards. The vader stereotype, whether you like it or not, is a blackguard. But there can be more. I've played charismatic fighters, frail monks, and even assassins with a code of honor before. There are all sorts of things that can be done. But if your going to take the Blackguard class... make sure it's a blackguard. Or... for NWN purposes... make sure the idea your trying to emulate using the blackguard class is what you call yourself, and not a blackguard.

There was my aforementioned Druid/Blackguard as a blightlord if you want to go by the class.

For an actual Blackguard I could see a Rogue/Blackguard/Assassin head of a notorious group of assassins and thieves devoted to mask or something. He could be a kind of 'Front' for the group. Appearing as a noble, and dressed in thicker leathers or chain shirt. He fights with strength instead of dex using masks favored weapon the longsword, and uses thugs and such to help him flank in battle to maximize his sneak attack. His strength is high enough that he could really make good use of knockdown. Maybe even focus in actual social skills like Intimidate. Perhaps summon succubi as part of his way of having 'Ladies' on his arm for the ball. Those succubi whisper dark motives into the ears of the local nobles, and he manipulates them into over taxation of the poor, or something like that. His public face is that of a gentlemen, but in truth he's a medium armored, longsword wielding maskaran menace who prowls the streets as the head of a group of nasty murderous thugs who bully and exploit the poor and the weak.

Why can't the Blackguard serve and draw power from both?

Because it says 'Patron', and not 'Patrons'.

Even a disillusioned LE fighter can worship Torm. Doesn't mean that he's doing it right. Case in point 'real life'.

True enough.  But if you've set yourself to running a Forgotten Realms campaign, then shouldn't you already have enough knowledge about the setting to discern what it is and is not?

Everyone is a virgin once. So too with faerun. Can anyone claim to have gotten it perfect the first time.

We're gamers.  Bickering about the rules is what we do.  It's all part of the role (and part of the creative process, I might add).

Everyone has their way.

But is your definition of what Blackguards are the same as what I think they are, what Machmoth and Fealhach think they are, and what the rules permit them to be?  What is a Blackguard?

Really, I'd like to know.  Because I'm hearing a whole lot of "Blackguards can't," "Blackguards don't" and "Blackguards aren't" from your end of the equation, but I'm not hearing a whole lot of "Blackguards can," "Blackguards do" or "Blackguards are".  That's a bit prohibitive to creativity, considering that the purpose of this thread is to break the Blackguard stereotype.  And we can't define something by defining its negative.  So I'm not all that interested in "Blackguards can't serve Malar because...."  I'm much more interested in "Here's how a Blackguard could serve Malar."  See what I'm getting at here?

Assassins have to be murderers. They learn to use poisons, and kill with a single blow when the target isn't aware of their presence. Assassins gain limited spells, and are pretty reflexive themselves. They are specialized and narrow scoped in this sense. They make a good prestige class.

Rogues can be lawful good. They don't have to be murderers, thieves, or even sneaky or dishonest. Hell a rogue can be downright righteous. The only thing they have to be is skilled, able to exploit weakness in combat, and reflexive. There is just about an infinite number of kinds of rogues one could make. They make a good base class.

Clerics have to have a patron deity. They cannot have a patron animal spirit. Clerics have to be fairly wise, and gain magical power through faith in a god rather than through their own efforts like an arcanist. Faerun has ten millions and six deities... so there is any one of an infinite number of clerics one could make. Cleric is a good base class.

Weapon Masters have to be fairly intelligent. They have to be fairly nimble as well. Weapon Masters must have remarkable martial skills. Weapon Masters further specialize in a single type of melee weapon. Weapon Masters have good reflexes, and every one of them can be intimidating. Weapon Masters are a narrow field, and make a good prestige class.

The paladin has to be good. A paladin has to follow, and often times uphold the law. A paladin has to have martial skill. Paladins should (because Wisdom isn't a necessary stat, but required for spell casting) be wise. Paladins (because Charisma isn't a necessary stat, but benefits the paladin in SOO many ways) often have strong personalities. (Opinion: There are many ways to build a paladin, but being limited to only Lawful Good means there are going to be certain qualities that all Paladins share. Unlike other base classes there is somewhat of a predefined feeling to Paladin, like Monk or Barbarian or even Bard. Unlike the latter numbers, the paladin is restricted to a single alignment. Because of that I feel it makes a bad base class. I've always felt that Paladin would be a better Prestige Class due to that narrowness. What someone might do is change Paladin to 'Divine Warrior' or something like that and allow it to be taken by any alignment, and patron up like the Cleric does. That way it's more in line with other base classes. Just alter some class features to be less alignment specific.)

It's all in the statistics and requirements of the class.

Blackguards have to be fairly strong. They have to be in a pact with 'Evil' powers. Blackguards have to have wll above average martial talents. Blackguards should (because charisma is necessarily a requirement, but benefits them as a whole) be charismatic in some regard. Blackguards have to have an above average skill at hiding (the strangest requirement to me still because it fits nothing in their theme).

The description of the class is;

"A blackguard epitomizes evil. They are nothing short of a mortal fiend, a black knight with the foulest sort of reputation. Many refer to blackguards as anti-paladins due to their completely evil nature. A blackguard is an evil villain of the first order, equivalent in power to the righteous paladin, but devoted to the powers of darkness."

So... Black Knight... Anti-Paladin... mortal fiend... devoted to the powers of darkness... evil villain...

Those are your boundaries for being a Blackguard. Anything within those boundaries is a blackguard. If you are doing something outside of those boundaries then your no longer a blackguard. Your something else. You can't devote yourself to Gond because Gond is not 'The Powers of Darkness'. Devils, Demons, evil deities. Those are the powers of darkness.

It's strange they would allow Hoar and Red Knight to have blackguards.... but I kind of get it. Hoar is all about revenge. I mean that could be a Blackguards entire motivation in life. The Red Knight is a deity of Knights. Blackguards are 'Black Knights'. I get it. I don't agree with WotC decision in that because neither Hoar or The Red Knight are 'The Powers of Darkness', but I understand it. In my home game I'd probably disallow those like I disallow Sunite paladins despite them being canon.

I can dress my fighter in the robes of the clergy. Use my deities holy weapon. I can even use an oversized holy book as a shield. No matter what my fighter is not a cleric... unless I take a level of cleric.

As for ideas the Ranger/Blackguard is interesting to me. It creates several images. 'Dark lord of the beasts', 'Royal Huntsman of the Righteous', or even some kind of common-folk who grew hatred towards corrupt nobility. Then devoted themselves through dark pacts for the power to gather the starving peasant masses they grew up with to overthrow their sovereign and establish a new kingdom with the blackguard as King. Then it turns out that the new 'Noble' is far worse than the old king ever was.

As sponsored by the Bard's College of Neverwinter. We will be holding a talent show for artists, performers, tricksters, and entertainers. Come even if all you want is to watch the performance. Anyone that participates will receive a token, and the winners will receive a special prize!

1st Place- Choice of 5,000 pieces of gold, or a magical cloak!
2nd Place- Choice of 1,000 piece of gold, or a magical ring!
3rd Place- Choice of 500 pieces of gold, or a diamond necklace!

Any talent that is legal in the streets is welcome. We promise that this year will be child safe... and the Bard's College does again apologize to last years patrons.


OOC Information: The talent show will take place Friday, the 23rd of August. The talent show will begin @ 8 PM Eastern Standard time. Participants should reply here so that I can get a list going. You are welcome to have up to 2 PC's participate.

Talents will include just about anything you want. Juggling, joke telling, or anything. Skill checks can be involved, or even not involved. Be sure to keep your talents PG. Dismemberment may be a talent, but hardly a sociably acceptable one.

Once everyone has conducted their performance I will call for a vote. Every person will choose two people to vote for. You cannot vote for yourself. The player with the highest votes will win. In the case of ties we may go into 'Sudden Death' where both participants will have to perform a second, different talent and be voted on again.

Again... tell me here if you want to participate! Also tell me the talent you want to bring to stage.

PS. I will also be stationing epic level guards for any smart-alecks who want to crash the party for everyone. I won't be afraid to use them.

"Classic" doesn't always mean "best" or "currently relevant".  The anti-paladins of Old School D&D may have been the roots of the current Blackguard class, but the Blackguard class has subsequently blossomed and outgrown its roots.  Anti-paladins were just that: Paladins who had joined the enemy.  But unlike their forebears, Blackguards need not be former Paladins.  So why impose the anti-paladin's limitations on today's Blackguards?

I'm talking about the image, and not the function of the class.

...aside from the Assassin being unable to summon Outsiders for back-up in a pinch.  Talona has her demons (as most Chaotic Evil gods do), so why wouldn't the idea of a Talonan Blackguard creeping into the heart of a city and unleashing a clutch of pestilence demons--with or without first poisoning the water supply--work?

But clearly you're firmly married to the idea that Blackguards should be Medieval Darth Vaders.  So what about my Wizard/Blackguard back there?  She worked out just fine.  Would you demand that I invest two Feat choices in Heavy Armor Proficiency and Still Spell rather than something considerably more useful (a la Extend Spell, Maximize Spell, Craft Wand, et al)?  And what about all of the Monk/Blackguards, Rogue/Blackguards, Druid/Blackguards, Ranger/Blackguards and other characters for whom wearing full plate (black or otherwise) would be a questionable--if not outright bad--career move?

I was replying to your statement about Talona not wanting a Darth Vader. I wasn't saying that you couldn't have a Blackguard Talonite. I said if it a black knight of Talona didn't suit 'You', not that it didn't suit it at all. I like the idea of a Talonite Blackguard. I just don't see it being a sickly whiny rogue killing people in secret with a cough.

Again as well, I'm not saying they 'have to' be in plate. I'm just saying the class has strange requirements like Hide skill and Cleave. The need for cleave makes it that you have to have a 13 Strength... or do that weird thing that NwN does and gives monk the cleave feat. You can be whatever blackguard build you want. I play wizards with greatswords, cleave, and even ones with Evocation as a restriced school. Build how you want.

But blackguard IS an icon of darkness, evil, and wickedness. The blackguard IS a class that needs above average (and 13 is above average) strength, and strangely above average skill in hiding. Blackguard IS a class that requires a character to be aligned with an 'EVIL' patron. Blackguard IS a class that requires an evil alignment.

Prestige Classes are limited, not open, by design. Assassins are murderers, and Red Dragon Disciples are half-dragons. Hence why there isn't a 'Blackguard' base class. Nothing wrong with playing a Wizard/Blackguard. Nothing wrong with Rogue/Blackguard, or monk wizard whatever half-monkey shadowdancer blackguard.

You need to read up on Gond more.

Gond is the god of artifice and invention.  That's it.  He's True Neutral, so he has no moral or ethical inhibitions.  His dominion is invention, creation and more invention; whether those inventions serve Good, Evil, Law or Chaos is irrelevant.  He exists to create new things, and those who innovate on anything for any purpose serve his word.  The kindly halfling who invents a new machine for tilling and sowing farmlands pleases Gond just as much as the orcish warlord who builds a new town-crushing war machine, no more and no less (save for the degree of ingenuity invested in the inventions themselves).

So yes, Gond COULD very well lend his divine providence and support to a Gondite Blackguard who sets himself to inventing one atrocity machine or Doomsday device after the next.  It's not like Gond has any shortage of Good servants and inventors, so he might as well take on some Evil ones, maintain the balance and keep his wishy-washy True Neutral status.  I'm not sure how talented Gond is at yanking demons or devils out of the Hells and sending them to answer the Blackguard's summonings, but my money says that he probably has an invention to handle that too.  For all we know, Gond might have a clutch of devils manning his Customer Complaints department too (and some angels over in Supplies and Requisitions, to boot).   

(Hmm...a Gondite Blackguard played along the lines of a medieval James Bond archvillain.  Maybe a Goldfinger analogue with an erinyes as his Oddjob, or something.  There's a thought....)

You need to read up on Gond's alignment. He's not evil. He can't be an evil patron for a blackguard. Under that argument I can assume that I can be a paladin of Gond as well as long as I ride a mechanical horse and fight with a hammer.

People make the same complaints about Wikipedia.  And you know what?  That's why the articles cite their sources.  For every tool wanting to edit in some fanboy drek or other fallacies, there are several Dudley Do-Rights just itching to slap that tool's edits with the dreaded "Citation Needed" tag or, for the more blatant offenses, completely undo the edit and leave a Vandalism note in the History.  So while wikis aren't perfect, the bigger and more popular ones are far better sources of information than you and every other naysayer out there give them credit for, thanks to their self-policing communities.

Did I mention the sources?  If the wikis aren't good enough for you, then you're perfectly free to click the links at the bottom and check into the sources themselves.  That's how I came to buying the Sea of Fallen Stars supplement during my time on the Pirate Isles server: After scouring the Forgotten Realms Wiki for every topic from aquatic elves to ixitxachitl to merrow to Umberlee--and seeing the same links to the same sourcebook over and over--I finally went straight to the tap and bought Sea of Fallen Stars on eBay.  If you're into adventures on or below the waves, it's a great book to have, despite its age.

They source non-faerun books for faerun information. Enough said.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Demon_lord

Maybe I'm picking at loopholes here, but I don't see anything in the rules where the Blackguard character must knowingly and wittingly draw power from an evil source.  Those demons and devils can be some tricky buggers...perhaps tricky enough to masquerade as angels and archons in order to entice someone gullible enough, desperate enough or blindly faithful enough to not scrutinize his or her Outsider contacts too deeply.  And if the wannabe-Good Blackguard does question or accuse his or her patron at some later point, an Outsider with enough guile can still convince the Blackguard that his or actions still ultimately serve the cause of Good (even if they actually don't).  Or if the Blackguard is indebted enough to the Outsider by that point, then the Outsider is free to dispense with cunning and civility and resort to "You'll do as I say or else".  And if the Blackguard has already drifted past the Moral Event Horizon by the time he or she realizes what the Outsider is all about, that's when the Outsider breaks out the standard "You're already irrevocably Damned, so you might as well run with it" tack.

I think that the "false servant of Good" device makes for an interesting twist on the classic Faust-and-Mephistopheles relationship, but it all comes out the same: the Blackguard thinks that he's the champion and that the demon is his trusty servant, but in the end, it turns out that the demon was the master--and the Blackguard was the servant--all along.  I suppose that's how many Blackguards end up, save for A) the Blackguards who are resourceful enough to turn the tables on their patrons and enslave them instead, or B) the Blackguards who serve an evil god to whom both the Blackguard and the Outsider must answer.  Not that serving an evil god in the afterlife is any gentler than serving a demon or a devil, mind you....

Your grasping at what isn't said... so yeah.

For example, I played a paladin for about a month.  It seemed like I couldn't say a phrase or take an action without being informed I was playing my character wrong.  It was as if every one of my actions were preordained from the moment I clicked the word "Paladin".  I ultimately rerolled as a fighter/CoT, but left the character and roleplay identical.  Suddenly, people were more receptive to the character and willing to explore the fringes of Lawful Good.

One of the reasons I've always disliked the Paladin class. I've always felt that it just doesn't fit Adventurers. I mean adventurers wander into the lairs of various creatures, some being neutral aligned or far from civilization, murder and claim waste to them and rob them of their goods to try and sell them off for he highest profit possible. It's almost like the whole profession is chaotic by nature.

Paladins, at least to me, make 'Excellent' NPC's and such. And in a game where the group is focused less on the classic adventuring style and more of the 'Holy Wars' against the dead or demons or such the Paladin is an excellent choice. But raiding the local goblins caves and chopping through the local wildlife in search of gold doesn't seem to fit those characters.

Let's face it. The difference between adventurers and bandits only lies in the fact one hits pink skinned talky people, and the other attacks green skinned talky people. 

Couldn't you just use the standard palette, unenchanted armors resrefs? Then you could just reapply the enhancement bonus after it is already spawned in the inventory. I don't see why you would need to spawn +6 versions of stuff, wipe them, and then add enhancement. Seems like an extra step for nothing.

I would like to run another event tonight. However I'm going to keep it to new PC's only. Basically lvl's 2-5 are allowed, but nothing above 5. If you would like to join up please be online around 9 EST tonight. Be ready with some kind of new character.

I'll only start with 4 or more eligible PC's. Otherwise I'll just wander aimlessly causing mischief.